Tim_M
1472
I'm a bit surprised at all this animosity towards these two.
First, when I think of brands that have been standing up collectors with endless waiting lists, bundling at dealers, or gouging on price, UN and GP aren't even on the radar.
Second, what specific UN or GP watch has anyone here been struggling to buy? Maybe the Laureato a few years ago...? But even then, the core 42mm steel model has been selling for thousands below list price as a used watch for at least two years. The 81010 is a $14,300 watch that sells for under ten used. Is there anything else I'm missing? Has anyone seen the price of used Freaks - even the first ones from 2001-2005? They probably cost less now than they did then.
I understand rage at the arrogance of some brands whose names and models we all know, but the tinge of vindictive enjoyment in some of these posts caught me off guard. Just in the last year, UN openly admitted that its resale and aftermarket were out of control and bought/destroyed a bunch of grey market and closeout watches to try to prop up its tragic resale value. Honestly, when people ask me for high value-for-complication used watches or a cloisonne enamel dial that doesn't require a personal plea to a company president, I usually point them at the Ulysse Nardin aftermarket.
Now, I get the anger at the abuses that emerged since the immediate post-Covid period in this industry, but THESE brands, really? It would be like raging at Lucid or Polestar - brands desperate for your attention - because Porsche won't grant you a 911 GT3 RS allocation.
Maybe I'm alone here, but I hope these brands survive. I wouldn't get any pleasure from seeing them parted out or sold to groups already overloaded with redundant overlapping brands.
Best,
Tim
Luxury Slump Leads Some Swiss Watchmakers to Seek State Aid
Girard-Perregaux and Ulysse Nardin among brands getting help “Girard-Perregaux and Ulysse Nardin have become the first brands to confirm they’re using a state program to retain jobs and avoid permanent cuts. Sowind Group, which owns the two manufacturers,...
This ^^^^ increase supply and stop playing games.
Give people the access to the watches they want instead of feeding everything to the same people. But what do they care I’m one of the few that are done with them and could care less if they stay or they go.
Do not increase but DECREASE production!!!
If you say give people access to the watches they want…. I guess you’re talking about mainly Rolex and Patek. Well in the article they name these 2 cause they’re the exception…. These 2 are doing very well So I guess they knew what they were doing and the...
Correct, I was not being specific to the brands in the article.
My comment was to the manufacturers as a whole not brand specific.
Good call Marc
Nice foresight. Unfortunately when it comes to watches I don’t have such vision. However history has shown us time and time again that most things are cyclical (except death and taxes). As a smaller watch manufacturer , would cutting out the AD’s allow yo...
What the brands need to do? Bring out compelling products at the right price point and in the right quantities. It seems UN and GP have not been doing that.
It may sound harsh, but I wouldn’t mind a rigorous clean-up and if that means losing some brands it is what it is. Those sales will go to other brands, which will be stronger long-term and they will offer employment to the skilled watchmakers currently at...
I agree
Brands like UN and GP are suffering because their products are mostly uninspiring and their marketing (or lack thereof) reflects it. Both brands have some decent watches (mostly UN with the Freak) but the average price is way higher than their brand perce...
As a prominent grey dealer recently stated,
“Back to the regularly scheduled programming”. The last few years have been extraordinarily good times for watchmakers. I’ve lived through several, similar business cycles in my own arena. When things normalize off of extreme highs, quality companies, pro...
your grey dealer line is excellent
from the picture, you can sort of guess who is the most financially exposed to their own brand. I believe Breitling did some sort of 'private' crowdfunding this year. This is always a bad sign for me
Well, in the end the consumer will decide.
Heritage is one thing, being nostalgic another one… But if you don’t create compelling offerings ( combination of a lot of different factors) you’re not going to survive.
It looks like certain brands will survive and grow and others will continue to fluster.
After such a boom of the past few years, I would’ve expected companies to save and invest into their brands. And not just marketing. And im not speaking about watch quality / design etc. It’s about their management teams. A downturn always separates good ...
Didn't they change to self-ownership only a few years back ???? Sounds like leadership mismanagement, especially considering how huge this past bubble was.
To me, they have no real 'modern' identity any longer. In the 1980s, sure, you knew Nardin, but now? Just visited their website, and some models look like the $500 Chinese skeletons i see flooding the typical sites. Imho first thing is to reduce, it's not...
i remember being on TimeZone the day we first saw the Freak. Track the thread, am sure my username will show up.
Ok, fire management. Get someone passionate who truly understands modern horology (huge huge apologies, i know that sounds like me being a total a---h-le, but i mean there is a (modern) path for luxury goods. Frankly, kill 80% or so of the current lineup....
Agreed, provided they have.....
Hmmm... my dad was a hired consultant for many decades.... Armani, his longtime friend Ralph Lifshitz (Laren), Izod, Nike... and many others. Am going to bow out of this conversation because (in my humble experience) "free advice" is usually valued as suc...
100% cool my friend; have zero of either. :)
Tho do have a nice selection of 'cheap fun' timepieces that probably make zero sense to others. My lovely wife, on the other hand, very much loves the artistic side of mechanical horology, including world time and planetary clocks / devices, so it takes a...
To be fair it's a challenging type of business to run
Like a lot of you, I have been surprised by how rude a lot of watch brands have been to deal with, I suspect they killed a lot of their hardcore collectors and will now eat it. The new faux collectors they decided to chase are not real nerds that buy watc...
There’s only one thing I do not fully agree with…
I find the business is both capex and R&D light, not heavy when compared to other industries. When watch brands wax lyrical about spending 60 man days about something I cannot but laugh out loud 😁
Haha well I guess it depends on what you’re used to
most other consumer is significantly easier
A few high performing Boutiques and some very high quality ADs are the way
Next, GP could easily wipe out 50% of their product offering allowing them to focus on their better/best pieces. Shrink the marketing dollars and pass the savings onto the client by way of more competitive retail prices. Let the watches do the talking wit...
Focus on identity
The work I’ve been doing indexing some 9000 references (so far) has really illustrated to me the difference between the brands who focus on identity and are recognizable vs those who jump all over the map and chase every color, metal, strap, etc
I’m not surprised at all!
They created some less than impressive monstrosities, trying to be RM, or Roger Dubois, interested of creating a product of heritage and high quality. Enamel dials, repeaters, tourbillons in wearable sizes and costumers will come, classic never fails…
I'm a bit surprised at all this animosity towards these two.
First, when I think of brands that have been standing up collectors with endless waiting lists, bundling at dealers, or gouging on price, UN and GP aren't even on the radar. Second, what specific UN or GP watch has anyone here been struggling to buy? Mayb...
Tim, I am a huge fan of GP and UN, which are among my favorite brands. It's been a good 15 years that nothing really exciting was offered to us, with too rare exceptions, from these two brands.
A few Laureatos and super high end watches from GP ( MR Titanium Tourbillon for example ) and from UN ( Marine Tourbillon Enamel, Executive Tourbillon Gree Wheel WG Osmium Dial 18 pieces 2019, or Marine Grand Deck, Moonstruck )... Compare the new offers t...
Don't you think this comment is fair for the industry overall rather than only for UN and GP?
May be my memory is failing but over the last 15y I can't recall many interesting new offers from market darlings - Rolex, AP, PP, etc... Some playing around - yes, but little really new. Instead, IMHO, for successful ones we have 2 factors in play: 1) de...
Tim, you are spot on.
These are not the offenders of those general crimes against watch collectors. I think the sentiment is really more that this is a harbinger and the actual offenders may too suffer and folks will be happy to see that. Some of the direct criticisms towards ...
Nobody enjoys reading about these problems of the mid-tier brands.
To me, one of the problems is so much attention is being polarized. One one hand, toward maniac proportions toward Rolex, PP, AP, and to a certain extent toward VC. And only toward a select models. There is still some hope because watch enthusists appreci...
I'm sad for both brands but the path UN has taken since its modern glory days of 20-30 years ago is particularly bothersome. I'm not sure what the answer is but would love to see a
reverse of fortune. Staying their current course would seem to be suicidal.
I wish them the best. GP and UN are among unique brands with heritage and used to be unusual (perhaps can be called innovative)
I think the management must be restructured. I had high hope on Patrick. I agree with most of the gentleman here. Wipe out 50-60% of the unpopular models noboby wants. Focus on honest product with classic models , modern movement. Reasonable price. I pers...
Video of Nicolas Hayek interview
Does this advice still apply to the watch industry today? Hear what the legedary Nicolas Hayek had to say circa 1990 or so when this interview took place. 🤝
He had such a strong vision for generating value through production. Love it! His interviews were always thoughtful..... and consistent.
wish I could watch some interviews with A.L. Breguet!
Where to start…
First of all, the furlough or short work (in the German speaking world) can be a useful instrument for healthy companies during a period of economic difficulties. What it does not do is to solve your problems if these are ‘home made’. One of the issues of...
Interesting topic, dear Marc!
The news that Swiss watchmakers like Girard-Perregaux and Ulysse Nardin are seeking state aid is certainly a wake-up call for the entire industry. The economic downturn, particularly the sharp drop in demand from China, has forced even some established br...
There is a lot of truth to many of the comments posted here.
My biggest issue with the watch industry is lack of transparency in their products, marketing and sales. The opaqueness prevalent in the industry and seemingly “part of the furniture” so to speak, has lead many buyer/collectors to be rather indifferent to...
Well,
I have little sympathy for brands that have ignored outreaches from dedicated members of this site whilst pissing aways millions to celebrity brand ambassadors. 1) Our requests to JLC for many ideas let alone collaborations have been dismissed out of hand...