Fastwong
2564
Lots of opinions, I think all are true and perspective depends on timing and price. Earlier watches aren't the same as later watches, old pricing isn't the same as new pricing. At today's pricing I think it's hard not to be skeptical of RWS watches.
The older watches definitely had a hand made feel with finishing flaws totally visible to the naked eye. I was actually surprised when I saw my first IRL, figured most of the issues seen in photos would be too small to see without a loupe but that wasn't the case. There's nothing inherently wrong with that though, many reframe imperfections and enjoy them as signs of the hand of the creator. At least you know for the early examples RWS himself made the watches in the old way and if you value the Daniels mythology there's value in that and a unique offering.
The newer watches seem much better as far as precision and consistency of finish but the making of the watches has changed as well. 80% of RWS watch hours are spent finishing CNC parts, that leaves 20% for assembly, making small parts, QC etc. RWS is also a team of over a dozen which if following the Daniels method of one watchmaker one watch means that RWS himself is making just a small percentage if any of the watches. So quality has increased but so has production and pricing.
Personally, I want my watches made with the most modern tooling available for the best precision of assembly and operation so that's all a good thing IMHO. The only issue is the pricing. A RWS watch today not only is unlikely made by the man himself but modern CNC production process and quantities start to put his shop more similar than less to other indies and then comparisons becomes problematic. $400k for a time / date watch? That's UJ tourbillon remontoir money. I think it's fair to say that even at $200k this would be a strongly priced watch just as a thing, a watch not attached to the Daniels legacy so the price premium attached to the mythology of RWS is huge.
The question then is what is the the brand equity (and price premium) of a RWS watch worth? RWS himself isn't known for his horological innovation, he doesn't have a catalog of innovations and complications like FPJ so there isn't engineering and R&D to to account for, for a basic time/date watch that leaves construction and finishing. At the same time, if we value his hands in the making and construction does that unique value still translate if the watch isn't made by him personally or even if it is, most of it is CNCed anyway? If we say CNC production is actually a good thing and his team is as skilled as RWS himself so finishing rather than construction is what matters, there are lots of indies doing amazing finishing work, maybe better, definitely for less.
In the end most watch pricing is nonsensical and we can absolutely question the premium pricing of a lot of brands so I'm not trying to single RWS out, I'm guilty of my own nonsensical excessive watch choices. Trying to rationalize object value and pricing is probably missing the point and that's why we don't try to discuss value/pricing on WPS but I think this discussion is not without value for collectors considering a purchase.
Overview of the Roger W. Smith Series 1 to 6
Based on the Isle of Man and the sole apprentice to the late and great George Daniels , Roger W. Smith is a not so well-known master watchmaker . So, let's have a look at some of his watches, especially his Series 1 to 6 . If you want more detail and info...
Thanks for collating them all 👌🏻👍🏻
The square Theo Fennel is absolutely stunning - could well imagine that one in the next life 😊👍🏻🤞🏻
Impressive and informative post, Emmanuel. Thank you.
Roman numerals are not my thing so naturally my favorite is the platinum case with eastern Arabic numerals and leafy motif. Thanks again for sharing.
I find this Easter-Arabic piece a little reminiscent of some Parmigiani pieces...
The Toric Quaestor Pegase The Tecnica XXVII Panier De Fruits The Toric Quaestor Ripple Best, Emmanuel ...
Aesthetically and horological wise absolutely outstanding ❣️🥰
Love especially the big small second that is placed so perfectly! So many times you see it too close to the center of the dial with big gaps between the verge of the small second dial and the 6 o‘clock position of the dial! Not to mention everything else!...
It’s outstanding watchmaking, for sure!
Which conveys a hand-made feel which isn’t always as palpable among other independents (just my impression of course). Best, Emmanuel
I really love it too, but would replace the Fennell logo
by a Roman twelve or a double marker.
Roger Smith is very underrated as
a guillocheur. Look at his GB dial it's a masterclass. ...
This is a brand I do not understand
Many of their watches have objectively sloppy mistakes and they aren’t completely hand made. There’s no excuse for it given haldimann is handmade and not sloppy. Very confusing to me.
Interesting point of view, which I’d like to understand more.
What objective sloppy mistake do you have in mind? And what do you mean by not completely hand-made? As we know that a completely hand-made watch is very, very rare and extremely expensive. Best, Emmanuel
Broken down in detail on Quill and Pad
quillandpad.com IMO, these are not acceptable flaws on a 6 figure watch. Like I said, Haldimann is similarly priced but pieces like his tourbillion are much more complicated and free of defects. Plus he is handmade! Same with Greubel of course.
Thank you very much! I will take the time
to read this article. The only thing that I don’t understand is this idea of “entirely handmade”: among Greubel’s watches, only the Hand Made 1 and 2 are entirely made by hand. Ferdinand Berthoud has recently released the Naissance d’une montre 3, which i...
Oops
Should have typed it out more. -Yes the Greubel Handmade 1 + 2 is what I was referencing. They are flawless under macro VS RW. -Haldimann is less than RW but still well into 6 figures. But they are flawless. -I don't really care if the flaws come from bei...
RWS is the most overrated watchmaker in the world.
This is a sentiment that is being shared more frequently among collector circles, albeit privately.
Thank you for sharing your view, Cozmopak.
I have myself never seen a RWS watch in person and wasn’t expecting such a severe judgement. But having such a discussion is interesting. Best, Emmanuel
For the record, I like a lot of his work,
especially his open work series 2 (or series 5, as it is called now). They are visually very appealing watches. But they are not handmade, not in the least, as many falsely assume. And there are many finishing flaws that can only be chalked up to either l...
Thank you for this detailed explanation.
Very interesting for me, as I was completely ignorant of everything you say. I fully understand your disappointment. Have a great weekend. Best, Emmanuel
I saw a rectangular Smith (not the SE) so many years ago I don't remember...
...to this day maybe the most impactful watch I've ever seen. I love his OLD stuff. The newer ones are not appealing to me...too well-finished...they don't look handmade...
GF HM1 and 2 are not that handmade
For instance, they start their case making process with a nicely shaped and rounded metal that already looks like a case, vs a piece of raw and straight metal rod by Roger Smith. Besides, the HMs are double the price of RS despite a different handmade sta...
There are plenty of examples
Here’s one from the first listing I pulled up. Look at the text on the right. ...
I can show you that on any watch
from any brand under magnification, even those made completely with CNC which is supposed to be perfect.
Thank you, Ichiran,
for balancing the discussion with the point of view of actual RWS watch owners. I’ve personally never seen one of these watches in person and I wasn’t expecting at all such a controversy. Having such a discussion is very interesting and even more so if al...
It's not controversial at all.
Roger has been making watches for a long time and watch collectors know him and his watches. He handmade his watches and utilizes CNC for precise punching of holes for fitting of gasket to minimize risk of moisture entering the watch. He is very public ab...
Thank you
for providing all these details which help to clarify the situation. Best, Emmanuel
Industrial scale production versus a handful of watches
I would suggest a possible reason is because Rolex (using your example) is a very large scale, industrially produced product numbering in (allegedly) the low million mark, while Roger makes very few watches a year. So when you make so few watches and char...
QC is applicable on new products
but the Roger Smith that the hater posted has been sold like 10-20 years ago. Have we not seen oxidation/degradation on a watch's dial over time?
I have great respect for Roger Smith
his dedication to horology, his willingness to work hard, his willingness to work with George Daniels. Personally I find him to be more humble and sincere than some make him out to be. I do wish his watches were thinner - the watches seem thicker than the...
Thank you for sharing your views about these watches.
Having never seen one in person, it’s hard for me to tell how much I loved them. And I wasn’t expecting at all the controversy regarding the flaws and poor quantity of hand made. Best, Emmanuel
Wow, quattro
Thank you for this lovely write-up and great selection of photos. Series 2 is on my dream list. Hopefully will get the opportunity!
Thank you, I’m glad you enjoyed the post.
I still have to see one of these watches in person someday. And I wish the best for the acquisition of a Series 2! Best, Emmanuel
Godly, is the only description I have in mind.
Thanks Emmanuel for sharing this amazing post. Best, Alex
Thank you so much, Alex!
I’m glad you like this kind of watchmaking and these watches. Best, Emmanuel
Those purple spade hands...
Thank you Emmanuel for the great effort to collate these.
Thank you, Goh! I'm glad if the post is helpful.
Have a great weekend. Best, Emmanuel
Lots of opinions, I think all are true and perspective depends on timing and price. Earlier watches aren't the same as later watches, old pricing isn't the same as new pricing. At today's pricing I think it's hard not to be skeptical of RWS watches.
The older watches definitely had a hand made feel with finishing flaws totally visible to the naked eye. I was actually surprised when I saw my first IRL, figured most of the issues seen in photos would be too small to see without a loupe but that wasn't ...
Very interesting read and thoughts.
Thank you so much, Fasting for taking the time to detail your knowledge and ideas. I'm learning a lot from this discussion. Best, Emmanuel
Same boat
I just think it's funny how much praise he receives while guys like Haldimann are largely ignored but put out objectively amazing watches...
The Daniels story is a nice one. Hard to blame the guy for milking the legacy, he put his time in, and the new watches do look good. As long as people know what they're buying eyes wide open it's all good.
I think were it gets problematic is confusing old RWS and new RWS both product and pricing. We know FPJ isn't making any watches today, we know PD (or his daughter) is finishing every watch today, with RWS I think there's some murkiness around what is yes...
You're absolutely right that presenting the watches in series gives a wrong idea of harmonious continuity.
But I was simply unaware of the dramatic production and pricing changes you are pointing out. So, thank you for doing so! Best, Emmanuel
There are no secrets about Roger Smith
His workshop is opened to anyone interested to see, and anyone could see his team of watchmakers making watches in the traditional George Daniels methods. He is always inviting people to his workshop. He can also show you the purposes he uses CNC for in h...
Good to know. Thank you, Ichiran.
I will personally wait until I have the opportunity to meet Roger W. Smith and see his watches to get a good and unbiased sense of his work. Best, Emmanuel
I struggled with understanding
this post. Not sure what you are about really, this "new" and "old" Roger Smith.
I don't mean to be rude, but
I recall a contributor here once attributing Haldimann's lack of attention/adoration/worship to his size. Kind regards, kkwn98