patrick_y
[PuristSPro Moderator]
33525
So hard to say...
The only way one can really say is to compare the factory operations and production processes before and after the Geneva Seal. And the sad thing is that I can't state with certainty what the operations were before and what their operations are now because I've never confirmed with Patek Philippe of the changes in their production operation standards. And I'm not sure they'd tell me the detail I'd need even if I asked. So I really wanted to write only what I knew with relative certainty.
But I like where your mind is at. That's a good thing to consider. I imagine the change between seals isn't as drastic as you probably think it is on the actual anglage. The watch made with the Geneva Seal is still mostly the same watch as it is today. But it's good to see you're considering everything and not making assumptions.
Thank you for commenting! Good thoughts!
Why Patek Philippe Is So Dominant? The Corporate Recipe At Patek Philippe...
Let's analyze why Patek Philippe is so dominant. What their corporate recipe is. And what other brands are trying to learn from Patek Philippe. Why do people buy the Patek Philippe brand? At the end of the day... People buy what they find familiar, and wh...
Why was the original topic removed from the overview? It seems, that it can now only be reached via this topic.
Other questioning (even agressive) topics, e.g. on the brand Laurent Ferrier, were left unchanged. And there was nothing aggressive going on in this one so far.
I am equally disappointed
I can see no reason for removing the original post (or hiding it under this one). I used to believe that watchprosite had clear guidelines on what content will be edited or banned, sadly there seems to be no room for objective discussion when it comes to ...
Explain exactly where was there an objective horological discussion?
This brand is crap my brand is better bull is going to end
I went back and re-read the original post
Didn't see anything of 'this brand is crap my brand is better' sort of language, not even an insinuationof it. What I am really objecting to is the censorship, which I found unjustified in this case.
Let me explain....it put on hold
I want this forum to move forward in a manner that allows for shared passion I don’t mind genuine critical analysis of a watch or movement, but generalised this is overhyped etc etc I am no longer tolerating Nor am I going to tolerate talk about investmen...
Advertisement budget
Is gotta to be far more than 3% of the revenue. In fact, it’s probably the biggest expense. For luxury product it’s usually 50% of the revenue. I think Tom Ford has this quote “how to increase sales by 300 million? Easy, give me 300 million advertisement ...
As an analyst and consultant in this field...
I'm fairly certain it's around 3%. Part of that advertisement is co-opted with retailers. The total budget in advertisement is somewhere around 3% or a little more. Not all retailers use their co-op marketing budget on advertising (some dealers use the fu...
How did you arrive at 3%?
What’s the breakdown? What % does the cost of making the watch occupies? % of other costs like admin? % of margin? I am pretty sure LV spent close to 50%.
Permit me to inquire, how did you arrive that LV spent 50% of gross revenue on marketing?
You say you're "pretty sure LV spent close to 50%" of their revenue on marketing? Permit me to inquire again, do you have industry experience? Furthermore, you're making a comparison between Louis Vuitton and Patek Philippe. Kind of apple and oranges. I c...
Doesn't figures like this comes from analyst like you?
“Forbes’ list of world’s most valuable brands show Louis Vuitton invests 42.9 percent of its 12.9 billion dollars sales on marketing and advertising activities.” Most consumer good companies invest between 10-30% of sales into marketing, and there is no r...
Thank you. For this post. You make the Patek watch owner feel good in buying a Patek.
Your article, lifts the spirit of a Patek watch owner. His in cloud 9. Best wishes, wonderful to know. 😉 Geross.
The point of this article is to point out the strengths of Patek Philippe but also point out we shouldn't put it on a pedestal and think they're the best at everything.
I'm glad that spirits can be lifted by this article.
Excellent post Patrick!!
Well researched and it covered every relevant area without being heavy reading. Yes I am a Patek fan and my small collection is built around Pateks but I do acknowledge that there are better finished watches around especially among the independents. I kne...
Just confirming mostly things you already know!
Yes. Definitely. A Villeret is so good. Superb. Wonderful. Every movement finishing lover should own one! Myself included!
This was a really interesting read, Patrick -- thanks for it!
One thing I'm very curious about is your statement, "All the other brands try to emulate Patek Philippe in one way or another...." With what other brands and models do you see that Patek-specific emulation clearly happening? I'm curious because I don't no...
Permit me to clarify...
Every brand wants to be a leader in either design, resale perceptions, innovation, and quality. The best job super desirable brands have done is in design and resale perceptions. Look at Richard Mille; it can't compete with Patek Philippe in a classic wat...
PP makes overhyped mass market products but a few gems too
PP has maybe the best marketing department. The way they advertise is remarkable. Apart from usual means of AD they don’t bother to bid on auctions and inflate prices. For example: not long ago a steel chronograph was sold for about 12 mil. dollars. The A...
“-makes-overhyped-mass-market-products” [nt]
Just curious You owned a Patek? Been on factory visit?
Let’s talk facts
If you have arguments against what I have written I would be grateful to discuss them.
Here are the facts
one wants to hear informed opinion and knowledge. You have neither. What you have is uninformed bias. And that has no place on the forum. Bye.
Good points!
They do have some really strong pieces. Incredibly strong pieces. And yes, some may be the subject of overhype. But who can we blame for that overhype? Probably less informed consumers? Hopefully this article will help inform consumers.
Thanks Patrick for a well researched post ! Overall, Thierry has been adventurous and has produced some controversial references that have proven to be...
successful after initial polarization. For example, 5960/1A bracelet and 5524 pilot. IMO, the 5531 and its new functions solidified its top position. Let's see how long Patek can stay on top.
Thank you Gordon for reading!
I think they're going to stay on top for a long time. Good marketing, good product, good everything. Sure, some references won't be hot, some are duds, a lot of women's models sell slowly (not to mention it seems the new women's model isn't garnering univ...
Agree with Gordon
I like the rather adventurous approach by Thierry to engage a greater younger audience. Also echo that this is a great post by Patrick. Well researched and balanced. Happy to read such posts, always.
Thank you for the generous comments and thoughts...
I never really noticed Thierry going after a younger audience specifically, but now that you mention it, I can see he has done some things that are possibly targeted at a younger audience. Good point! And thank you for sharing your very nice comments. I'm...
Thanks Patrick for this knowledgeable and beautifully written post.
Honestly, as a mathematician, I am normally skeptical about the strength of an argument that begins with "As a business analyst, here is my objective response to...", but I'm glad that I went on reading, as I truly found it a compelling and thoroughly res...
My pleasure!
Healthy skepticism is always a good thing! I read everything with some skepticism, even the news from major news sources. My analyst role is mostly utilized in technology and luxury retail for Wall Street fund consulting. I thank you for continuing to rea...
Indeed, it's in part also a concern of mine, since unfortunately rare handcrafts are at a significant risk of running out of fresh talent in today's market.
For instance, they told me when I visited Geneva this summer that they currently have *only one* artist in charge of the wood marquetry dials --- scary! That's why I hugely admire Patek's efforts in preserving and perpetuating these arts, as I think they ...
Indeed...
I hope they do work hard at training these apprentice artists. Only through this training will this art survive. Otherwise, it will likely be lost permanently. The gentleman making the wood marquetry is definitely a special treasure. Suzanne Rohr has slow...
We try to have some bare minimum journalistic standard on PuristSPro...
We always think, what posts have value and can give insight. And yes, I personally think it's a little strange to say "A a business analyst, here is my objective response to..." as I think it's not proper to state this. However, I've been reading some Har...
Excellent post: just one thing German Silver v rhodium plated brass, silver much much much easier to finish
philippe Dufour told me........
That's a good point...
The German Silver is a more consistent material compared to the harder rhodium plated brass. The rhodium plate also covers up a lot of the beautiful embellishment. Good point. I forgot that one!
Hi Patrick! Excellent ode to being a Patek aficionado!
I'd like to put forward the hypothesis that the finishing issue and the move to a new certification are perhaps linked. Further, I would say that for some fans of horology Patek's move away from hand finishing for much of their catalogue represents a much...
So hard to say...
The only way one can really say is to compare the factory operations and production processes before and after the Geneva Seal. And the sad thing is that I can't state with certainty what the operations were before and what their operations are now becaus...
Thanks for your kind reply!
I'm curious about modern Patek and its recent history and hope to learn more thanks to experts here on purists like you.
I agree with you. As for any other brand, there are good and less good things. One example I know very well: Their World Time. Not the best, technically speaking, but the most charming.
Another example: The 5960 ( A or not ). Technically very good, but the pushers are not very pleasant to use, and the movement finishings are good, but at this level of price, there is better... As for the image of the brand, the motto is surprising ( you ...
Well said! Too many people put Patek Philippe on a pedestal...
And some put it in the bin. A lot of new clients to the Patek Philippe family too whom are only buying based on brand recognition. Thank you Nicolas!
Very well worded from you both.
Sometimes I also find it very difficult to discuss certain things with these clients. They surely have some of the most annoying fans in the watch world...
Patek is yours to buy or not
the choice is always yours. If you think some other brand represents better quality at a better price, optioning for that brand would make sense for you. One thing that supports PP product value is that the Company has a very long history of standing behi...
Absolutely
We all make personal choices based on personal and subjective criteria. Can anyone really make a definitive judgment of what is or is not correct? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some value customer service as THE issue when buying a high end watch....
True... It's a holistic view...
I probably over emphasize on movement finishing more than I should. I often remind myself, it's a whole package, wear-ability, etc.
Agreed, but
If movement finishing is THE key issue for you, then that is fine. It’s how you should evaluate a watch. But, for others, it might be history of the manufacturer that is THE key issue with movement finishing way down the list. For those people, that is al...
Good points, Joe. As for movement finishings, it depends on the brand we are talking about. For example, we don't expect a superb movement in a vintage ( or modern ) Rolex.
For a vintage Rolex, we are more about history, charm, soul.... For a Patek, it is different. Same for Lange, or some Independents such as Voutilainen...
Again, I would say that
... the emphasis that any individual places on the importance of the finishing is 100% personal and specific. Regardless of whether it’s Rolex or Lange, the importance that any one person places on a factor is just specific to them. I am going to use Mile...
You're absolutely right! I often have to remind myself I can like a watch with less than ideal movement finishing...
I'm a big fan of the Reverso watches from Jaeger-LeCoultre, despite most of them have a lower emphasis on movement finishing. But I would never publicly slag JLC because I fault their movement finishing. That'd just be uncouth.
Good point!
But why is Vacheron Constantin, a company that is likely to be around for another 20 years, not enjoying the residual value of a much younger company like Patek Philippe? Hence Patek Philippe still has a special X factor that other companies don't yet enj...
Interesting Post Patrick, I enjoyed reading your insights, I would add to it what makes Patek dominant is its history as well....
You get this when visiting their wonderful museum in Geneva. Patek's have been worn by some of the most well known and influential people in Power, Film, Business and Adventurers and so on in the last 100 years, same goes for Rolex. That Aura and percepti...
Good point. A very rich history that Patek Philippe actively draws from.
Patek Philippe draws upon their history more than other brands. Good point! Thanks for reading and commenting!
Hi Patrick
I am the OP on this subject. Thank you for your very detailed analysis and reply to my original post. This writeup certainly brings a lot of credibility and pride for us PP owners and I learned a lot from it. I also greatly enjoyed the feedback and commen...
Hello Ben!
I'm not sure that the hacking feature would wear out the mechanism. I don't know. I unfortunately can't shift your original comments on your original thread to here. Once it's in hold, I can't access it. Have a great week Ben! Thank you for your response!...