Horology_Ancienne
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Thank you for your points of rebuttal!
You do yourself a disservice - indeed it was well written and certainly thought provoking. Below I give my responses:
As a customer: on this point we have no qualms. I agree with everything you’ve said and I hope my post was clear to show I do not believe a steel time only nautilus should trade for as much as a complication. On “buying many things” we also agree but to a small extent I can understand the need for purchase history before allocation of so-called “hot” watches. Nevertheless I think one to one bundling is a sin.
Domination: Patek to some extent is terrified of ending up like AP with RO dominating their catalogue. They want to keep their traditions alive. They are also keenly aware that trends can change and thus do not want to rely on the Nautilus in the same way AP has on the RO as neither might be future proof. There is a book Philippe Stern wrote (unfortunately was never made available for sale) which contained in his view the core tenants of Patek. Part of this was tradition which is why I can understand their refusal to allow the Nautilus to take over. Another part was about value. They don’t want to overproduce steel. They have seen what it has done to competitors. Moreover they want to preserve value for their investors - I suppose as a thank you of sorts. I don’t see it so much as punishing one model in favour of another but more about keeping the dream of Patek alive. They’re not limiting it any more than they were before. The spotlight can change at any moment.
Scaling: they 100% could but they are nervous to do so. Precisely because of what I mentioned above about changing trends. Recently Nautilus models are experiencing a dip in market values. Who knows how much lower or higher they may go. So they must exercise extreme caution. My point was more about (in light of this context) it isn’t a tap they can easily turn on and off and there are long lasting ramifications.
Dealers: for sure it would help ameliorate the situation but it won’t solve it. Dealers are clever. AP has been doing the same to no avail.
Marketing: I think they’re certainly enjoying the situation. It’s hard to defend the argument of “Patek hates the situation” especially in light of the Tiffany debacle. I think to some extent they are concerned but I find myself questioning just how much they do. The Tiffany nautilus made my stomach turn. I was so disappointed with the company.
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Patek and the Grey Market
Recently on Instagram I wrote a series of posts concerning Patek and the grey market. I put them together to share here. Hope you all enjoy. Some find it easy to place blame on Patek regarding the Grey Market issue. Through my journey with Patek, I don’t ...
Thanks my friend for a typically dense and compelling post on (the effects of) the current market situation, and on Patek's unique way to properly navigate it! ;-) A VERY complex matter, but you find me in agreement with all the main points you raised.
I was recently alerted to your IG posts, but since I don't have IG I confess I never got to read your thoughts before now. I'm sincerely glad you are posting them here, so let me very briefly chime in with my "stream of consciousness" as a reply to this t...
It’s a pity we can’t find you on Instagram but happy we connected here.
Thank you for the kind words concerning my post. I deeply appreciate it. It has been nothing but joy in finding my feet on WPS! With your knowledge of Patek, it comes as no surprise to me that you have been mistaken as a mystery shopper haha!! If owned an...
Good points, thanks for taking the time to share them
Agreed that it is not as simple as raising prices or production, one has to look at the big picture and all the moving parts.
We have a choice, but we are all sheep
As a proud owner of 5711 and 5712, please let me take a counter position here. First of all thank you for your well written and elaborate post, mine will be neither I fear. Just felt the need to comment on a couple of points where I disagree. My view as a...
Thank you for your points of rebuttal!
You do yourself a disservice - indeed it was well written and certainly thought provoking. Below I give my responses: As a customer: on this point we have no qualms. I agree with everything you’ve said and I hope my post was clear to show I do not believe...
A few fragments of thought...
I really appreciate this thread and thank you for this, Horology_Ancienne! Your text is full of love for Patek and full of passion. The points you raised give food for thought and also open up some new perspectives. I'm currently quite tied to work, so ju...
Thank you for the kind words Thomas - I spend more time than is healthy thinking about watches haha
1) 100% Patek is a company which will have financial goals and act as most companies do in many ways. However, the reason why I fell in love with Patek is because they so often say to hell with traditional company objectives in order to be romantic. A gre...
Excellent points and viewpoints BUT have one question
I completely agree and concur on all the points stated. There is one thing more that begs the question if Patek will embrace…that is the use of 21st century’s technology. I understand the core of Patek is tradition and following what has been done for yea...
If the Patek holds the information privately that's completely counter to the notion of transparency through blockchain tech. I don't think PP is holding back, the application of blockchain here doesn't make sense.
Further, applying digital ledger technology is different than authentication tech for physical goods and is a whole other discussion of challenges and really only works today with unique items and proprietary technology which again, proprietary tech rules...
Authentication exactly needed…
Authentication is the key in determining not only valuation across products but also provenance to safeguard any buyer of goods. Current paperwork can easily be duplicated and there is no ledger of which the public can access to authenticate. Imagine havi...
Fundamentally I think there is a misunderstanding between tracking (ledger) of a item and authentication (identification/verification of an item)
Let's walk through your scenario. Say someone brings in a Patek watch to a dealer to resell. How does one identify the watch to validate it against this "ledger"? SN#? Those can be changed/duplicated. NFC chip? Those can be copied and coded at home. The o...
While I don't disagree with your words, this article is HEAVILY BIASED in favor of Patek Philippe...
I don't disagree with a word you've said, but you haven't come at this topic with a balanced approach. You've made your suggestions and mentioned all the "Pros" with your suggestion but haven't mentioned any of the "Cons." Those who've worked in the indus...
If you say so...
I did cite a specific example to back up my words. Specifically I mentioned that there are no cons in the article and the article is written in a heavily biased manner. I may be the only person who thinks it's a heavily biased piece of text. And I may be ...
Dear Patrick, I have to agree with you.
And I'm afraid you were right. At the beginning I appreciated this thread very much and welcomed it, hoping and enjoying that we would have an open minded, interesting discussion. In reality, however, it is so far a one-sided „PR essay“, where supplementa...
Agree as well, this definitely feels very pro PP but hey, it's the PP forum and written by a PP fan/owner so I'm not sure I'd expect too much different
I appreciate the thoughts and the post from the perspective of a long time PP customer and I somewhat agree I guess my conclusion is different. It sounds like the conclusion of OPs thoughts are PP has done what they can within reason and so carry on, noth...
You're right, this is a PP forum, and perhaps it shouldn't be that unusual to see a heavily biased in PP's favor article.
You bring up a good point here. As for your thoughts on how to improve the grey market situation... I agree your approach could work. But how about this... Let's say I'm a big customer at an AD. This AD sells me a lot of watches that I want. But occasiona...
Interesting question.
„How can we change the attitude of those clients who are afraid to say No?“ IMHO: To achieve that you have to approach a different value system. Watches are not the most important things in the world. If I don't get something, it's not the end of the worl...
It doesn't happen with me at my AD neither...
But this is a common question I get from big collectors. They're afraid to say NO. And since financially, they're not losing much money by buying a watch they don't want anyways, they're happy to say yes to be able to stay the top client and to continue g...
Understandable
from their point of view. But at the end their “fear” and behavior encourage the seller. This vicious circle can only be broken if I can hold back sometimes and don't always have to have everything. But that is generally a basic problem in our time.
Dear Fastwong
I was careful not to give a final conclusion on the whole matter. As stated above (please see my response to Patrick for more details), this was written as a counter argument to popular points I’ve been hearing quite regularly. I mentioned this in my post...
Thanks for your response! I don't frequent insta much so I wasn't aware where this was coming from and I haven't seen your equal criticism of PP, just as a PP fan your post made sense to me.
As far as loyalty, there's loyalty to AD's AND loyalty to end customers to consider. If a brand can do both, great, but when push comes to shove and ADs behave badly at the expense of the end customer, Patek has to choose. My point in outlining the differ...
That's a good approach MTR! We should have a balanced discussion.
I hope we get some more opinions on how to solve this grey market problem. Ultimately, it's not a brand's job to police the industry (OP suggested this too, and I agree with the OP), and ultimately, the market decides what the price is. Unlike the stock m...
All I am saying….
You need to offer your “Cons” to the post in what you believe it’s wrong with the OP. Simply saying “you don't know what you don't know” gives the readers and OP nothing to go on. Offer what you think and we can judge otherwise. I am never stated my stanc...
Ahh, I see what you mean... (lengthy response)
I was going to type up an even longer response, but I'm going to keep it short. For those who want to absorb every word of the original poster, go right ahead. For those who didn't realize this was a heavily biased post, but after reading my post realize ...
Here is my original thinking with this post.
Although extremely active and busy on Instagram which takes my time away from WPS , I have always been encouraged by our moderator GLau’s to share more on WPS, especially on important topics. Hence, I felt compelled to share this important matter with you...
Hello Horology_Ancienne!
That's kind of the beauty about this site. One doesn't have to go into depth about their argument. They can state their prerogative as thoroughly or as shallowly as they desire. Of course, we would all like to see the reasoning behind an argument to make ...
Patrick and HA - this site is different from Ig and the responses will be from a different cross section of collectors BUT
HA has some very valid points to make which may upset some members here, but the nature of the forum is such that various opposing views are always welcome and should be aired. I think it is difficult for Patrick in some circumstances to straddle the line...
Definitely a different group on Instagram compared to WPS...
Just different strokes for different folks. On Instagram it's much more about consumer culture (not to mention Instagram, like Facebook, can be very show-off like) and on WatchProSite we're much more technical. We used to be even more technical, but writi...
I have no clue why a “Moderator” is still bashing on the OP.
1. Claiming that the WPS is more than a “consumer culture” site, you must be kidding yourself. Look at the last 15-20 posts of the Patek forum. Do you see anything of substance, other than this post by HA? Why don’t you bring back the old glory of movemen...
I already addressed this in a previous post...
I already addressed your response in a previous post. I'm not bashing on the OP. I even agreed with the OP. You never even responded to my response where I called out your false accusation of me "dissing" anyone. Again, why would I disagree with the OP if...
Great post!
My humble opinion is as follows we will never be able to get rid of the gray market so long as people are willing to throw money at watches at any cost to show off or etc. And as long as people can make money, some people will capitalize on a relationship...
An excellent and well-considered post as always.
Thank you for sharing your perspective here and on IG. All the very best, Niall
Thank you for your post, all makes sense by discontinuing the 5711 was a clear move and nothing else..
Scarcity of watches can happen for a number of reasons. Today even a Rolex is not as easy to get. I completely appreciate that scaling production to meet the demand of just 1 model is difficult and not in the best interest of many luxury watchmakers where...
Excellent post, Christian!
„Why not discontinue what clients don't want and not the most popular model!” Well, I'm just a small watch collector and work in a completely different segment (IT). So there are certainly more qualified people to explain the background to us. I deal with...
Thank you, some very interesting points that I didn't see👏
like ultimately increasing the value of the company and -- a very good point -- make everything so desirable that as soon as a watch is available, even from refeences that are usually not loved like the Golden Ellipse, there is immediate demand. Additiona...
I don’t know, either.
What I know: the global amount of money is getting bigger and bigger and wants to be invested. And watches, like many other limited goods, are becoming more of an object of investment.
This is a most enlightening post.
Thank you for sharing this with the community. I wholeheartedly agree with your excellent analysis of the situation.
Thank you
I very much enjoyed your well thought out posts/arguments. The “extreme” answers are unlikely to be the right ones.
Thank you for this post. Unfortunately,...
some brands are abandoning their faithful dealers and going the way of the boutique. Very sad.
Agree, mostly?
I have no complaints about your synopsis. But, what about those of us who happen to have obtained a nautilus watch prior to the upsurge in pricing? Many years ago, I was eyeing the nautilus chronograph. It didn’t come to fruition. But, my wife bought me t...
Well written report of the current market
It seems many of the comments about suffering an increase in production of sports watches or increasing price to meet market price and eliminating ADs are comments from those who are not familiar with Patak and it's history. AP is known to eliminate ADs i...
Thank you H_A for spending the time to put this post on WPS !
Knowing that you are extremely busy on IG, I thank you sincerely on behalf of the forum for sharing your passion, knowledge and collection. Great that you explained out the history of AD partnerships which is an important point that defines the philosophy...
Thank you!
Thanks for reposting this. I enjoyed reading the original post on IG. Your input is always well thought out and appreciated.
Alas,
at some point most PP watches will come on the market at some point in time. Owners need to downsize or die with no heirs and the watches turn up at dealers or auctions. It is a laudable goal to attempt to sell new product to true end users, but with the ...