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Well said.
It is impossible to objectively self-regulate. An example is in medicine where, before the Bolitho case (UK), doctors could in effect self-regulate themselves to the point of theoretically winning all negligence cases. This was through the precedent set by McNair J in the Bolam case. What the latter case stipulates is that provided medical experts' evidence for the defense is judged to be both responsible and reasonable then whether or not the claimant's medical experts are found to be more reasonable/responsible the defendant will always win. The problem with this can be best illustrated in Hucks v Cole (pre-Bolitho) where the defendant had failed to prescribe penicillin which culminated in serious injury to the patient. The doctor had 4 medical experts stating that they would have done the exact same thing, however the judge was not convinced finding that a clear precaution had clearly not been taken.
Going back to PP's seal, would it be fair to suggest that a company (no matter how respected, experienced and clearly at he top of their game) who self-regulates their own product, will be acting in a consistently objective manner? I like the idea of change, particularly controversial change, as it stimulates discussion, review, and (one could argue) positive evolution to horology as whole. Rather than having the actual owners of the company be the final arbiters to their Seal, perhaps they should hire a highly respected independent body to audit or regulate their own standards. At least then credibility might be generated.
A great post nonetheless Jerome! I always enjoy reading your passion for PP.
It embodies the values and standards of our family watch company!
"It embodies the values and standards of our family watch company". You may have already read this sentence that is the introduction to the Patek Philippe Seal launched this year. Now that the passion seen at the launch of this Patek Philippe Seal is quie...
A reputation is what others say about you, not what you say about yourself.
I consider the new seal program to be in poor taste. However, if it makes people other than me open their wallets, it is a success. I particularly object to the accuracy standard embodied in the seal criteria. Average accuracy is a matter of luck and care...
A seal is not a reputation!
Hi, I read your point but a seal is a commitment and a commitment is not a reputation. The reputation comes from the level of respect of the commitment! Regarding accuracy Patek Philippe's requiremetns are not limited to what I wrote but what I wrote is w...
100% agree. Certification can only be external.
I agree 100% with everything you say. ili
A seal with good intentions...
I'm convinced that the Patek Philippe Seal is a seal with good intentions that will further signify Patek Philippe as a leader in customer service. However, it does seem to step on the toes of the original Geneva Seal governing body and the others who uph...
Wise thoughts Patrick
Wise thoughts Patrick, and thank you for your comments! I've long loved this pocket watch and seeing two of them on the same day was something! At least after such an experience I could (shortly) rest in the VIP room! Cheers Dje
Dje, that is what I call ...
a very well done post. For sure, worth to keep it on my HD. Thanks, for all your efforts! Some "sceneries" looked familiar to me and brought back nice memories Oliver
Good intentions are sealed to any PP watch
So, why does PP need a seal, being Geneva or Patek? That is the question which remains. I find the PP seal redundant with the claim of Excellence. Excellence, nor PP doesn't need a seal. So, besides this personal opinion, I want to congratulate you for th...
I share your point of view but...
I think the point is not to convince us (I do agree with you: the name on the dial is enough) but to weaken the Geneva Seal. Well, that's my theory. Fr.Xavier
Interesting theory
I too believe that the Patek Philippe Seal is supposed by essence to surpass and improve on the Geneva Seal! Cheers Dje
Thank you Nicolas
Hi, Indeed that's your personal opinion, not mine! If they had named it "Patek Philippe quality chart" or "Patek Philippe commitments" or whatever...... would have that changed something! A seal replaces a seal! That's it! Cheers Dje
One must expect the unexpected...
With competition in the market of highly complicated watches in the 6 figures, Patek must continue with new innovations, strong R&D, and superior brand recognition otherwise they cannot continue as a independent watch making company. I for one am thrilled...
Many Thanks, but you haven't addressed one worry
I appreciate the time you've put in to that article, especially the illustrations, but I still have one major concern, openness/auditability. The COSC, for all it's flaws, the Geneva Seal Org and the QF certs are all given by an organization outside the w...
Jerome,thank you for a beautifully crafted article & photo..
And to all the members who have shown either agreement or have bought a constructive criticism to the table.
Sorry Aaron but I strongly disagree
Hi Aaron, Do you really think that the Geneva Seal control process is any better than what you describe as negative for the Patek Philippe Seal? If you've read my words and not just looked at the pictures you may have understood that the Patek Philippe Se...
I'll not defend the GS
But if Patek wants to present the PP seal as a marked improvement over the GS, and superior to the other alternate "seals" out there, it would be nice to know how it is superior. I'll admit that the finishing descriptions are more detailed than the other ...
No problem
Hi Aaron, Patek Philippe doesn't want to present its seal as an improvement over the GS, and doesn't refer to other seals either. There are many many points in watchmaking that have no standard of reference, so for instance there is no definite way to dec...
They may not say "this is to replace the GS"
but it seemed to be a clear message in the adoption of the PP seal and the dropping of the GS. They could have easily made the PP seal incorporate the GS, but instead they simply stopped using the GS. I didn't hear them ever say "we are replacing/improvin...
Of course
Of course Patek Philippe didn't drop the Geneva Seal to adopt lesser requirement ! So obviously if they choose to change it's certainly because they consider their Seal to be in some ways superior to the Geneva Seal. In fact whatever the Geneva Seal chang...
PP seal: A process & product seal vs Geneva seal: A Product seal
When I first read about the PP seal, I commented on this forum that it was fatally flawed, in that it was not an external evaluation. I later read the interview with Stern in the PP magazine & changed my mind. The new PP seal seem to primarily be a statem...
Patek seal....Skeptical, from experience.
I've been retired now for nearly ten years. All my working life was spent as an Engineering designer, a draughtsman to most. When my drawing were prepared, they had to be 'checked' by, yes you guessed it, by a 'checker'. Often the checkers would be busy a...
PP seal: marketing or quality assurance
D in W said: How on earth can anyone give a seal of approval to themselves? e.g. I've done well today, think I'll give myself a 'D in W' seal......utter rubbish, it's meaningless. Let’s go to another field. I run a general ICU. Some studies have shown tha...
Well said.
It is impossible to objectively self-regulate. An example is in medicine where, before the Bolitho case (UK), doctors could in effect self-regulate themselves to the point of theoretically winning all negligence cases. This was through the precedent set b...
Where is the Cartier Forum?
You seem to be putting a lot of faith in the Geneva Seal. Maybe too much, to receive it One example of a watch must be submitted, then that same series can be made for 1 year or 40 years, only the one watch is checked. Dje said it right here "Keeping the ...
Thank you! Did you klnow they have a "comite du poincon"
Hi, Patek Philippe has a "comite du poincon" that incorporates people from outside the company. patek.watchprosite.com Cheers Dje
That does clear things.
Thank you Jerome! They do indeed state an independent body known as 'Comité du Poinçon' as verified under the 'Seal regulations' section. patek.com
Anybody who see the Patek Philippe Seal as unserious
Anybody who see the Patek Philippe Seal as unserious should IMO and with all due respect see the Geneva Seal as a mockery! I weight my words! Self control inside a company is possible. That's the basic notion of normalization and all quality controls are ...
cartier and the geneva seal
Patek shouldn't have been so surprised to see Cartier get the Geneva seal. If you look at the Geneva seal requirements, they all pretty much relate to polishing and finishing. It's little wonder then that a jewelry company, Cartier, would be able to quali...
Had Patek re-name this seal ... ??
MY question really is : Had Patek ( NOT) name the seal under this name, would the reaction from the general public be less harsh ??
Good question
Hi, That's a good question. I'm surprised by the allergic reactions to this Seal. Would it be because people realize (or don't want to) that the Geneva Seal is not so much of a proof of overall quality finally? Cheers Dje
On fairies, beads and mirrors...
Gentlemen, aren't we all mature enough to know that the end purpose of these seals, bells and whistles is to improve the bottom line of the company? It amazes me that so many otherwise savvy and educated people believe in marketing hype as if it were a se...
Sure but
Of course all companies have for purpose to improve their bottom line, but the difference relies on the way they choose to do it! The essence of this Seal may well be to forbid to do it at any price, but to do it respecting the family, company and watchma...
What happens if Cartier produces a watch with the Patek seal?
assuming, the Cartier watch passes all Patek Seal requirements. What will happen next? If watches from other brands are able to get Patek Seal certification, the only problem I have with this Seal is the name. Patek should have issued it some other name r...
That will not happen
Hi Anthony, That will not happen as the Patek Philippe Seal is not open to watches from others makes ! So Cartier would have to create its Cartier Seal, if they are tempted! J Cheers Dje
Then what is the meaning?
They already "have to" produce the best watch possible It is already the politic of the Brand. So why? I agree with some points above. How can you call that a seal? A seal means independant and for everyone who one to get to a standard. Parmigiani Fleurie...
No I don't think it is true in fact!
Hi Cisco, Sorry but I think you're just wrong about what a seal is. There's no notion of independant body in a seal. Nor does that signify that such a seal has to be opened to any other make! A seal means that the company or the body applying its seal gua...
I was a bit bitter and I apologize for the words used
But I think you can find some justification inside my post. You think a seal doesn't mean independant, for me it does. Patek has to do the best watches. Not because of a seal, just because of the name. For me this name means more than any thing. Making a ...
Thank you Cisco
Hi, no problem! i understand your posiiton and I understand that you're not at ease with communication, but all companies must communicate and watchmakers now live in a communication word so if you don't comunicate you're dead! The new customers for tomor...
This has been a great exchange of views and
it seems that with the launch of this new seal and all it brings (promises), I can only imagine what pressure it will bring to the QC department. After all, I would assume that there will be no problems with watches built to such strict standards. And, I ...
Going further though,
I wonder about the person who has read all the wonderful things about the seal, goes out and buys a watch and has problems from the get-go. Is the seal a promise that this won't occur?
No
Hi, Whatever the quality is, quality problems can always happen, specially with mechanical watches! The Patek Philippe Seal is not a reliability seal. It is a commitment to do their best at all steps to avoid problems (among many other commitments). Certa...
Why not?
I would think that Patek has had an ongoing commitment to produce their watches to this level, so maybe I'm missing something here. I believe a seal, to the average customer, would imply reliability (performance) as well. You are absolutely right though, ...
Yes Patek Phillipe has an ongoing commitment
Yes Patek Phillipe has an ongoing commitment to produce watches of a very high level of quality! Planes are produced to a high level of quality, still there are planes crashing! Yes the Seal implies reliability, but is not a promise of perfection, just of...
I share your passion for Patek Philippe,
and this has been a great exchange of different views from Patek Philippe owners, collectors, etc. around the globe. I can't speak of planes because I don't know the facts of why they crash, but I can speak about folks who have had issues with newly purch...
I hope so
Hi, Thank you for your comments. As I understand it the Seal is a commitment towards an overall quality. It does not necessarily changes much the way things are done right away. It is a basis to secure what is well done and then certainly improve what has...
Just some add'l thoughts
Let me preface by saying I would not choose to buy a PP because of the PPS...(or GS for that matter). I would buy a Patek (or any other watch) for what I perceive to be the level of quality and design I am looking for. Having said that, if what PP is sett...
My take!
Thank you for sharing your point of view! Your arguments are comprehensive seen from your side but seen form PP I don't think that would be the case….. This is not Patek Philippe's role to put a defy to other watchmakers or watchmaking companies, or...
well, um...no.
"Isn't that what the Geneva Seal started out as??" The Geneva Seal started out as a way for Geneva brands to "discriminate" (in all the glorious senses of the term) for Geneva based brands and against non-Geneva based sub-contractors who were slowly encro...
DJE...well presented...thank you for the photos...
and your passion for the brand really shows... Maybe this is just a newbie question, does this mean that only certain watches in the Patek line would get the PP seal? I may have missed that in reading about the seal from countless other articles. Its stil...
My pleasure!
No all new Patek Philippe has supposed to get the Seal. If they don't meet the requirements they don't get out! J Yes the Seal is marketing in some way, but the content of the Seal is real work! Always hard to self police, sure, but it's still better than...
The PP timing is not performed as COSC timing!!!
Dear Dje, For clearing situation with PP seal I should note that PP does not "include" COSC. The COSC method of certification is very well known and includes tests under various conditions. PP does (that was mentioned in PP press-releases) only simulation...
Maybe
Hi, Maybe the PP tests are not the same as the COSC tests. And I'm glad they are not identical in fact. In fact I see the COSC tests as much theoretical as the PP chronometric tests. Indeed the COSC tests are done only on calibres. The Patek Philippe chro...
skeptical at first
But now neutral. If the new PS enforces higher quality and standards then I will accept it. I trust PP to provide a credible seal even if its it's own seal. Maybe tomorrow GP and JCL will attain the Patek Seal too and then compete with the Geneve Seal. Is...
I want to stay optimistic and let some time to see
Hi, I'm sure Patek Philippe would not do that for lower standards. That's pretty brave from them IMO, because they can't fail! Cheers Dje
