Thanks, Bim, Ben, Ed. At the risk of getting too abstract and philosophical...

this is an automotive forum afterall, and not Belles Lettres...

(aside - I've found that, in general, car, and even more so, motorcycle, guys, tend to be pragmatists, at least in terms of priorities with MEASURABLE benefits like performance figures and reliability. Phrases like "take it to the lights at the drag strip or the traps at the track" and of course, the obvious disdain, to the point of reverse snobbery - "look at all that money spent, but it's still slower than...")

I'm thinking Bim and Ben's comments which appear to be slagging Japanese makers (Yamaha specifically, and the R1 even more specifically) is an artifact of the examples and not indicating some underlying national (Italian vs Jap) or regional or even brand snobbery. (afterall, Bim obviously appreciates Subarus... )

If the underlying point is that there is a tendency of the Japanese brands to inflate or exaggerate performance or specs for the sake of commercialism - dry weight vs wet weight (I look at this as akin to the default having to "opt in" vs "opt out" of commercial programs - it indicates the mindset of the management) or horsepower figures (or even where it is measured - "at the crank" or at the wheels?) I agree there is a general problem overall, which is not only limited to Japan.

BMW speedo calibrations; Aprilia and Piaggio too - consistently +10% or more - why? to make their vehicles appear sportier than they are?

Versus M-B or Honda speedo calibrations, which I've found (and consistent with many journo's comments) - they tend to be more accurate.

Ben, this ain't as intellectually rigourous as I would like, as I'm very time limited right now, but my knee jerk reaction to yours and Bim's comments in this sub-thread is, "hmmmm...what do the results of the qualifying sessions and season opener results of MotoGP tell us...?"

We don't protect sacred cows around here (we might respect them, but we don't protect them... ) and if you want to hold one brand or region or industry to a certain rigour, you need to do the same, and consistently, with all.

Cheers,

"specs" and tolerances - what are your experiences?

By: ThomasM : April 8th, 2012-12:30

examples of differences between supposedly "same" specs and tolerances - HK original German rifles vs "licensed" versions (Greek, Pakistan, Mexico, etc) - pins can be pressed in, vs "tapped" in, on Oberndorf and HK in house production vs licensed... Shoei...

Specs...

By: BDLJ : April 8th, 2012-19:35

Components can be 'built-to-print', can they really replicate an original? I'm not so sure, but it's even more difficult to assess a system by looking at a single component - witness the discussion of Brembo brakes in another thread. Yes, opposed piston c...

you've raised some very interesting and salient points, BDLJ.

By: ThomasM : April 10th, 2012-09:20

Hi, Ben, I personally feel there are no universal "truths" (and find it offensive when some try to make statements as if there were, like "cheap Chinese knockoffs" or "prison slave labour" (in China, Mexico, TurkUzKazhakstan, etc) - as if all products fro...

All good points, TM.

By: BDLJ : April 10th, 2012-19:01

Going back to the 'original point' concerning production tolerances.... A good way to think of it: Take a tolerance of 100mm +/-0.5. This tells you that it can be 99.5mm to 100.5mm. But you probably need some experience and study to know what exact length...

thank you, a very succinct example to underscore the point. (nt)

By: ThomasM : April 10th, 2012-20:32

In general the specs are off

By: ED209 : April 8th, 2012-20:19

Interesting topic TM and would like to know more about what recent experiences have brought this up. The HK example would be a really good reason for the argument of specs/tolerences being off compared to the licensed versions (Greek for SAR8, Pakistan fo...

My experience as well, and as a general rule, I tend to...

By: ThomasM : April 10th, 2012-08:57

be willing to pay a bit more, and appreciate more highly, a Canali or Corneliani suit made in Italy or Boss made in Germany than same brand made in Turkey or Pakistan (specific locations randomly named, not necessarily specifically correct) how much of th...

Sales brochures ...

By: bimbeano : April 9th, 2012-14:36

Thomas, this thread could be endless ... so i will try to tell only what sticks to my mind best ... . Sales brochures of modern sports bikes that is. I started riding in the early 90ies, and in 1993 i bought a Honda CBR 600 f2 imported from the US to Euro...

Dry weight.

By: BDLJ : April 9th, 2012-22:37

Good post, Bim. The Japanese like using dry weight, which is not the test weight for the bikes but a completely dry weight - no coolant, no acid in the battery, no oil in the sump, no brake fluid, etc. Nice way for a bike to run The funniest thing with th...

Thanks, Bim, Ben, Ed. At the risk of getting too abstract and philosophical...

By: ThomasM : April 10th, 2012-08:53

this is an automotive forum afterall, and not Belles Lettres... (aside - I've found that, in general, car, and even more so, motorcycle, guys, tend to be pragmatists, at least in terms of priorities with MEASURABLE benefits like performance figures and re...

I have nothing but

By: BDLJ : April 10th, 2012-17:16

...admiration for Japanese performance motorcycle engineering. My favourite bike, the one I will never sell, is Japanese. The points of criticism of above are directed at my usual bugbear: Advertising/Marketing drivel. Drivel that does them a disservice a...

Point well made, and well taken.

By: ThomasM : April 10th, 2012-20:31

Hi, BDLJ, "The points of criticism of above are directed at my usual bugbear: Advertising/Marketing drivel. Drivel that does them a disservice as it allows for the reasonable criticisms Bim makes: Claims made, Claim not met, Disillusionment results. " Com...

Specs.

By: dreamer8 : April 10th, 2012-21:26

Late to comment but have read thread in its entirety. IMHO, tolerances achieved by robots are so close in modern manfacturing that BMW's from Germany, South Africa or Spartanburg would be near identical in tolerances. I no longer hear or read about bluepr...

Blueprinting.

By: BDLJ : April 10th, 2012-23:42

You're completely correct re Blueprinting and modern specs. That whole exercise of getting conrods and pistons weight matched is now done pretty well by the factory. There a no longer wierd bits of casting to get your grinder on, nor badly mismatched port...

Thank You for chiming in .....

By: dreamer8 : April 11th, 2012-04:01

and offering your thoughts. I suspect it is cost cutting on Subaru Australia 's part, regarding only 2 pot callipers for Oz. Maybe Subaru Australia need to recoup the costs of complying with ADR ( Australian Design Rules ) given the small numbers imported...

Anytime...

By: BDLJ : April 11th, 2012-04:28

...for someone who had a 124

A fun story about speedo calibration.

By: bimbeano : April 11th, 2012-12:19

Hey Thomas, your comment on the speedo calibrations reminded me of a fun story. When i had my Audi A3, me and a friend owning the Subaru-dealership organized a small drive on some country roads. So one evening we went out to make a road-book, we decided t...

Speedo error...

By: BDLJ : April 11th, 2012-23:53

....Speedometer errors are definitely vehicle dependent, while the error is always postive (speedo cannot under-read), brand new tyres running at decent temperature (and hence above cold pressure) will compensate somewhat for the error. If the manufacture...

Oh, before I forget to pass this information on...

By: dreamer8 : April 12th, 2012-00:18

for Victoria, Australia. A driver successfully challenged and had his speeding fine and demerit points overturned in court because he was caught speeding over 104 K ( you are allowed a 4 % , but previously 10 % ) but less than 110 K in a 100 K zone. He wa...

Hmm. Haven't heard of that one...

By: BDLJ : April 12th, 2012-01:12

....seems a strange defence. I think Kearon v. Grant still stands(???) So even if you reasonably made the mistake of speeding....it's still your problem. So it's not much different than if you tried to get out of a drink driving case by pointing to your f...

Wheelspin ....

By: bimbeano : April 12th, 2012-02:25

I remember doing 195 kph from a standstill in under 10 seconds .... while standing still .... in the snow Bim

A Bit of Blether from an Old Socialist.

By: stephenleslie123 : April 9th, 2012-15:07

The major influence on quality is the owner of the manufacturer. The more firms are owned by hedge funds, pension groups etc. the more quality will suffer. The reason manufacture is transferred to Asia and South America is cheap, non-union labour, and the...

A common point of view and one that seems to make intuitive sense, but...

By: ThomasM : April 10th, 2012-08:39

like in most things, especially in the area of generalizations, not necessarily a truism. Many management gurus have already pointed out the dangers of short sighted profit maximization at the expense of "quality" (which of course needs to be defined, and...

The Wealth of Nations versus Das Kapital in no more than fifty words.

By: stephenleslie123 : April 10th, 2012-12:18

The vast majority of companies are owned by their shareholders. The major shareholders are financial institutions. The companies and financial institutions are run by employees who must comply with their business plans. In the case of the companies the bu...

I love simple declarative statements like

By: ThomasM : April 10th, 2012-14:10

"The concept of a sound business plan is false. " Makes life and the world so much simpler, eh? Alas, "real life" has a tendency to force me to face the reality that things are not quite so simple, both in concept (like "a contented labour force" and "ben...

You Can't Jump to Conclusions.

By: stephenleslie123 : April 10th, 2012-15:42

Isn't it remarkable how one can gain the wrong impression? If I didn't know better I would swear you don't have a clue what you're talking about and are trying to hide your ignorance behind a smoke screen of nebulous pontification regarding the nobility o...

Clever, your not so subtle use of irony to make this exchange "personal"

By: ThomasM : April 10th, 2012-20:19

Dear Stephenleslie, I had no intention with my comments to make this a personal issue (as in, "you are stupid because"...or "you are an ass because"...) and my comments were sincere, as were my questions. My request to define "a contented labour force" wa...

Marketing and brand perception is powerful...

By: mrsnak : April 12th, 2012-19:32

One pays for a popular brand accordingly. I do think that great values exist than more than satisfy the price differences. I prefer to shop that way provided I can get objective comparison. I don't work in an environment that requires brand cachet, but ot...

Well said Snak !!

By: bimbeano : April 14th, 2012-17:06

I experienced this in real-time ... a client of me telling me the company i worked for some ten years ago has a great brand-name and is highly respected ... i sell better stuff at a better price with better after sales care ... but who am i with my one-ma...