Baron - Mr Red
14613
Three things.....
....Picasso is very much alive. He continues to live through his art.
....Patek Philippe is very much alive....It continues to live through its art....both present and future.
I never used the word iconic....just the analysis that any model that attempts to compare x with y when it comes to watches is fundamentally flawed. That is why I think it is pointless.
I love to hear about your 5960A and your appreciation for it.
Where I start to draw the line is where someone makes an argument that the 5960 is not as good as some other reference.....
Far too little of the former on this forum and far too much of the latter.
Kari, Mark is making an argument for greater diversity on the forum. I think this is a great example. I am not a fan of the 5960A. You are a big fan. Its not iconic or anything else other than should I consider this reference as something I want to buy. Hearing you post on it...as well as Nicolas and many others.......makes me look at it and evaluate it. Its an owner's perspective and it makes a non-owner evaluate it from a different angle. I am a massive fan of that process. I may end up buying one or may remain unconvinced about it....but the process is great.
Where I think things fall apart is when one reference is hailed as "better" than another. In virtually ever respect, this is an enormously subjective arena. There can be no definitives. Yet, the forum has continually expanded in that type of process. More of the former yes please...but the comparative analysis that seems to be taking hold just leads to rudeness and a lack of respect for watches owned by others.
Thoughts about the influence of successful references
Hi everyone, I posted some thoughts lately on Baron's 5070 vs 5970 thread and maybe this wasn't the best place to put it (sorry Joe), so I copy it here and take it off his post (I'll add the first answers here as well). This is a little provocative but pl...
The past
People relish objects from the past because you cannot get new I guess. I personally like the references mentioned and think they represent the best of Patek DNA.
This is indeed an interesting point
I imagine it talks to what we've been shaped by, our experience, what we've seen etc... I totally agree on your last comment. I would say that today they are what many will answer first and what matters is to find someting that really appeals to us. Time ...
Miles, dom,
I guess Miles this is indeed natural, imperfection can been seen as charming or unique or like a flaw depending on the subject. I see in your path quite similar elements with what many I think have known (especially as you are now proud owner of this 5970...
Mark, I would like to focus on one issue presented in your thought provoking and intellectually stimulating post.
If a high volume of an otherwise fantastic watch is produced, does that fact alone diminish (or even eliminate) the appreciation of and desire to own that watch? The answer for me is "yes" both regarding both the appreciation and desire elements. Yes, I c...
I think the same
It is always quite difficult to know where we stand. We know what we like in a watch, trying to remain objective and factual but the feeling or rarity definitely plays a positive role (little or big depending on each one). I feel exactly the same as you d...
You made a great point in Baron's thread initially.
And I am glad you turned your comment into a separate post. Your argument is valid. We will have to see how people feel about the 5270 and 5170 sometime down the road. I do see more than a few posts here from people who are fully appreciative of the newer...
I noticed the same indeed
About sizes, aesthetics, proportions etc... I see indeed quite many remarks about these elements too and this can shead a light over brand's strategies today. I had a thought about the 5170 lately: we often would like to see references looking more like t...
I am with you on this one Mark in Paris.....
you like the one you're lucky to own in my opinion. The current collection is equally beautiful . Best Regards Edward
Indeed, with time I feel I'm still very attracted by the 5712
This is quite a satisfactory feeling, that I didn't keep with all my previous watches. Not a real judgement on the watches, just the fact that some elements have changed in my likings. I also think that the current collection has many references to be att...
It is all about watches, not rarity, in my opinion.
Rarity is relative... If one million people want the same watch which has been produced in 10 000 pieces, this is a rare piece. Now, if only 100 people want a watch which has been made in 1000 pieces, this is not a rare watch. It is all about the watch. T...
I totally agree
A way to avoid mistakes is to really focus on the watch itself. Its details are what we will be enjoying or not when we will be wearing it. Even if it is sometimes hard to ignore what comes around brands and models, and I imagine it is part of the charm t...
Yes, I remember the 5712 but you had a 5980 as well didn't you?
I see your great interest for the 5960A. I'll be glad to see when you take the plunge whatever your choice is. We'll have many Volvo shots Best, Mark
Totally agree...
But as a collector should you really care about what others say about a watch. If you like it that should be enough ;-) I see that there is a great love for the nautilus collection in this forum which i respect but i must say I wouldn't dream of buying on...
Indeed Fram and I think that this is the difficulty!
Especially as we don't all have the knowledge and background in watches to determine what is good and what is not. I remember some watches or brands I was looking at when I started and I'm happy I didn't get them :p However, I didn't know this back then. ...
A very thought provoking post Mark.
I consider the watches you posted to be classics, but I also love modern Pateks. I find it frustrating when I read comments like Patek has now lost its way. There are countless Pateks from the Thierry era that I would love to own - 5990, 5524, 5930, 5905,...
I agree....I am bemused when I hear comments in how lazy PP is for not making movements for specific case sizes and how wonderful Lange is!! The 5524 Bey g one criticized for too small case....
Then we get the "iconic" 5070 with the smallest movement to case size and everyone think it's just great and gets weak at the knees!! Give me a 5170 any day!!! Sophisticated, low profile understated elegance
That imho emphasized how much different we are all
and how we see each references. The ones that would please us the most are not always the ones we see most or think of at first. But I think that flaws are not seen the same way, depending on how we like a watch at first and how we can get used to or enjo...
I love them both too
And I can even add some vintage models, even though it is quite new for me and that I don't like a lot of models yet. I must say that I agree with you and that I think that most of Patek's novelties are going a different but good way. We still have the ch...
Thank you Mark for your post!
I agree with all the points you made. We always believed taste is a highly subjective thing. What we don't realised is we are influenced by others (opinion leaders or other watch fellows) everyday. As an owner of 5110. I have to say that I fell in love wi...
You're perfectly right
and I must say, concerning the 5110R that I didn't pay much attention to it until I tried the one of a fellow purist. Influence is part of all what is linked with design and aesthetical matters. Our tastes are all influenced by our experience. Hence, I fo...
Hi mark
A most intriguing and interesting thread 1. It is to be expected that tastes change and todays favourites may not be this which collectors desire in 10 or 20 years We vcan see this with bubble backs , Princes and even the highly desired 3970 have fallen o...
Indeed Julian
Standards evolve through decades and some watches' success might evolve likewise. I say "might" as some can remain. As you emphasize it, it is a lot about normal human liking and how we come to appreciate things (or not) over time. The vintage collecting ...
I happen to agree with all your points Mark
when I began my journey through the fantastic world of watches. I wanted so bad a green bezel Submariner, it was back in 2009. A friend of mine conviced the watch was nor beautiful or a keeper for the upcoming years. He was quite a visionnary? The fact is...
Your example is indeed something most of us I imagine have experienced at the beginning
and I must say that what I presented in my original post (getting some distance to have a more global view on the market, allowing people to have access to a wider diversity of watches without being scared to make mistakes and being able to find what real...
Mark brilliant as always.
You nail it every time. Glad you mention the 5960p. I've been banging on about this watch for years. Here is a pic of The Good , The even better and the Ugly...... I let you decide which is which. All the best. M. You ...
From left to right....
5960, 5970, 5070, Beauties. Congratulations Miles_151, Best Regards Edward
Well done Edward. You got Ugly.
Thank God you didn't say middle one 😉 Have a great weekend. It's so Ugly it's beautiful. M.
This is a diversification I like a lot
You have in terms of design and complications such different watches. I'm glad as a 5970 and 5070 owner you appreciated the thread and I don't think we will have enough of these pics! Enjoy your watches Miles and thank you for your kindness Best, Mark
Great thoughts!
I am sure that nowadays the only real thing that watch world lacks is criticism. People blindly praise some watches (like the references you mentioned) or give a positive nod to all other watches. The truth is that lots of expensive watches including PPs ...
I think it is difficult indeed
especially since it is also a lot about subjective elements (not only but they have a significant place in this field). Hence, prices, finishing, reliability (based on statistics or on the post we might see on forums and so on) are really difficult issues...
Wow.
You got some serious platinum Chronos is a wearing them in the best of health. Best, Ahmed
This picture is one of the most appealing
Modern and new references, all traditional watchmaking at best Best, Mark
Sometimes...
I really wonder why we do not see more disparity here. For example I would really love to see the 5230g or the 5396g with the beautiful slate grey dial in the wild. Either I am the only one who like them or they are so rare, that nobody get them...
I see this quite often, even elsewhere
Some references that watch fans share on forums come more frequently than others. What you emphasize is exactly the purpose of my post. Not that it is bad, as people should of course get what they prefer and also that those models have something beautiful...
I am late to the thread...
But methinks your points are really interesting. I have a really good feeling that many years down the road (20 to 30 yrs later), people would start hunting for current Patek references just like what people are doing for earlier references. It is a vicio...
Indeed, when we take some distance, things look different
When we try to observe today the 1970's-1980's, then the 1990's-2000's, we can see different styles of watches and that things change. Some models "improve" and are even more appreciated and some a little less. In the 1930's-1960's period there are icons ...
Great post Mark!
When I was looking for my first Patek, the 6000g wasn't even on my shortlist. I hardly saw any pictures of it online - other icons like the Nautilus, worldtimers, ACs and PCs dominated the spotlight. This was until I saw one in the metal. I fell in love i...
This is indeed an element I wished to underline
As we are all looking for pleasure in watches, it is in our own interest to widen our experience. It is the same in other fields but the more we focus on a small number of pieces, the more we narrow the chances to enjoy something else. This is something t...
One great post again!
First I thought I will not participate the discussion because it seems so easy to upset many... To me it seems to be a fact that there are people who declare something as Iconic and this declaration gets then followers. Another phenomenon is that what is ...
Technology typically advances......
......yet watches are as much art as they are science. Perhaps more art than science at this level. It is always easy to argue that the most technologically advanced development is superior. Yet...... .....they don't make Picassos like they used to. Genui...
i have no issues at all...like you say we can all have personal views etc etc.....just making the observation that....
.....X is better than y is a never-ending and circular argument based on assumptions that are impossible to validate. And also...that they don't make Picassos like they used to....
indeed...that is correct....
....its discussed all the time. And there can never be a resolution. That is why I think its pointless. We both love 5370P. Great...all that proves is that we agree on this. We differ on our view on 5960A......no way of determining right or wrong because ...
True. But Picasso is dead, Patek Philippe is very alive
as 5370P proves. I love my 5960 but I'm never claiming that it would be an iconic reference - just the right one for my daily wear. Best, Kari
Three things.....
....Picasso is very much alive. He continues to live through his art. ....Patek Philippe is very much alive....It continues to live through its art....both present and future. I never used the word iconic....just the analysis that any model that attempts ...
I think this is a pointless argument.
I can naturally avoid expressing my own ideas and preferences if it makes life easier. And I have never claimed that my personal opinion would be the right one. In fact I have pretty bad taste. Best, Kari
Not at all....
.....like i said in previous post, hearing what you think about a reference you love is great. It is where the forum adds so much.
Indeed, diversity and curiosity will serve our passion even more
Thanks for taking the time to write your thoughts on this matter. This is a wide subject and I was more particularly emphasizing the fact that (like in any other fileds, and not only aesthetical ones) the more we talk and focus on a few actors and the mor...