Mark in Paris
[Purist]
10488
Thoughts about the influence of successful references
Hi everyone,
I posted some thoughts lately on Baron's 5070 vs 5970 thread and maybe this wasn't the best place to put it (sorry Joe), so I copy it here and take it off his post (I'll add the first answers here as well).
This is a little provocative but please don't see here more than just a disccusion and thoughts on how we shape our tastes and how we can be influenced. Don't see this post as a negative comment on the references I mention but just a philosophical exercize. I love those watches too and they are high on my personal wish-list.
I think that the discussions and different thinking can bring enrichement to people who like to spend time on this forum and think about purchasing watches in the future.
I noticed also that some people who own alternative references sometimes feel not that "at ease" to post as they know how people love the famous ones instead and I see people sometimes going toward these models on the forum because they are appealing to many here (this is quite a human behaviour of course). This can be due because they are in phase with current aesthetical standards but also because I think we see them a lot. The more we see some models, the more they are liked (they should be well designed at the beginning of course), the more they take the place and the less other references can have a chance, even if they are nicely designed.
I don't want to compare those references here, face to face, but just that we take a closer attention to how it works and what it can lead to. Take this as an additional tool to make your decisions in our watch world and not something against our successful early 2000's references.
This is all the difficulty between saying it is famous (so this is a proof it is the best) and saying that it is the best for people here, used to seeing and enjoying them and, then, being in a position it is more difficult to go toward another design.
This is what my post is about.
These are the few remarks I wished to share.
"We talk a lot about the 5110, 5070, 5970 references as iconic. I think that a part of their success is not only because of aesthetical elements but also because of the frequency they are posted on a forum and how the tastes of the poster have been forged. It is then more difficult to explore and go toward something different imho.
We can't be sure that the 5110, 5070 and 5970 will be seen as such in the future, maybe other references will be seen more positively than they are today (hence, maybe more "truely" compared to today). I know that for some it is difficult to imagine but it is possible that, in 5, 10, 20 years from now, the perspective we have can change quite a lot (on one way or on the other way). We can only have a look at 1960's to 1990's watches to see that some famous references have been replaced on the front line of the favorite models. This doesn't mean that in the future these early 2000's reference won't remain number 1, it is just that things may change significantly. What seems obvious today may not be so when we look at how design cycles work.
What I also noticed is that some models can have flaws but people don't see them anymore when it has become successful. I love those watches, but this is what people say as Cons when new models are launched. I tried to see if they could be applied to those famous models too (many are subjective and depend on the observer of course).
The diameter or the movement versus case size matter are rarely something mentionned by people for whom it is usually an issue (especially when novelties are presented). The 5070 is 42mm, the case is big compared to the caliber (not an issue for me but mentionned often), the subdials are quite big compared to the vintage models (which usually serve as references when new models are presented), very close to the center, the overhall balance is placed on the upper side etc...
As for the 5970, we don't talk about the very small and not that nice looking leap year and 24H hands. I'm sure that if it had appeared on a recent novelty for the first time, people would have mentionned them in a negative way.
This is to say that flaws are not always seen as such, can be like a charming element but also that when presenting a competitor, what is reproached then is usually more visible than for older appreciated models. This is all about subjectivity.
Another thought. One element to help seeing that is what would we have thought about the 5110, 5070 and 5970 if volumes had been multiplied by 10 (hence, around 3000 5070P reference). They would still be the same but would have they looked as appealing?
That is all what our hobby is about.
What I think is important here and I wanted to share is that it may lead to standardisation. The main problem now is that the more we see them, the more we talk about them and the more we like them, hence, the more we narrow our choices. This is the same for the Nautilus (model, dial color etc...). When we look at watches people have on forums, what new watches they get, they are among a smaller and smaller group of references.
That's something I think isn't the best situation as we tend to like the same things in the end."
To be clear, I wish those references were still in the catalog so I could get one. I like them but would it be so if I didn't see as many (I don't say it is bad as it is usually giving a good advice to new incomers)? I don't know. However, that's why I try to remain open to novelties, wait to see them in the real and try to know if after a while I can like them a lot, not because I get used to them but because I can try to put aside what I see here and know what really pleases me. Many successful references were not that liked at the beginning (like the Nautilus when introduced for the first time in 1976) but look where they are now.
Please, 5110, 5970 and 5070 owners keep on posting and sharing your beauties, they are useful for those of us who think about getting one in the future, they tell about Patek's history and they are a delight to look at, there is no doubt about it.
Take this post for a mere ingredient in our experience, just food for thoughts (or not 
) to widen our possibilities.
) to widen our possibilities.Best, Mark
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Mile_151 has wrote:
Very well put Mark as always
I agree with you 100%. We do seem to accept the perfect imperfections of some blood lines but not others. I for one was really not keen on the 5070 to begin with. I was lucky to get a 5070g and 5070p at retail but something just didn't sit right with my eyes. It was all wrong. Dial lay out case size in proportion to movement size ??? It was a muddle to me. However years on this watch is one of my Favourites now and is so ugly it's beautiful if that makes sense. My brain has learnt not to see its wrongness and only its beauty. And who said men can't be trained ??
Again thanks Mark for your thought provoking post and a huge thanks to our good friend Baron for comparing what for me are both stunning watches even if one is prettier than the other.
Love the effort gents.
M.
Again thanks Mark for your thought provoking post and a huge thanks to our good friend Baron for comparing what for me are both stunning watches even if one is prettier than the other.
Love the effort gents.
M.
dom007 has wrote:
Mark once again you hit the nail on the head
I really appreciate to read your wise comments. It's alway a pleasure to read them. A real enrichment for this forum. Thank you!
Thoughts about the influence of successful references
Hi everyone, I posted some thoughts lately on Baron's 5070 vs 5970 thread and maybe this wasn't the best place to put it (sorry Joe), so I copy it here and take it off his post (I'll add the first answers here as well). This is a little provocative but pl...
The past
People relish objects from the past because you cannot get new I guess. I personally like the references mentioned and think they represent the best of Patek DNA.
This is indeed an interesting point
I imagine it talks to what we've been shaped by, our experience, what we've seen etc... I totally agree on your last comment. I would say that today they are what many will answer first and what matters is to find someting that really appeals to us. Time ...
Miles, dom,
I guess Miles this is indeed natural, imperfection can been seen as charming or unique or like a flaw depending on the subject. I see in your path quite similar elements with what many I think have known (especially as you are now proud owner of this 5970...
Mark, I would like to focus on one issue presented in your thought provoking and intellectually stimulating post.
If a high volume of an otherwise fantastic watch is produced, does that fact alone diminish (or even eliminate) the appreciation of and desire to own that watch? The answer for me is "yes" both regarding both the appreciation and desire elements. Yes, I c...
I think the same
It is always quite difficult to know where we stand. We know what we like in a watch, trying to remain objective and factual but the feeling or rarity definitely plays a positive role (little or big depending on each one). I feel exactly the same as you d...
You made a great point in Baron's thread initially.
And I am glad you turned your comment into a separate post. Your argument is valid. We will have to see how people feel about the 5270 and 5170 sometime down the road. I do see more than a few posts here from people who are fully appreciative of the newer...
I noticed the same indeed
About sizes, aesthetics, proportions etc... I see indeed quite many remarks about these elements too and this can shead a light over brand's strategies today. I had a thought about the 5170 lately: we often would like to see references looking more like t...
I am with you on this one Mark in Paris.....
you like the one you're lucky to own in my opinion. The current collection is equally beautiful . Best Regards Edward
Indeed, with time I feel I'm still very attracted by the 5712
This is quite a satisfactory feeling, that I didn't keep with all my previous watches. Not a real judgement on the watches, just the fact that some elements have changed in my likings. I also think that the current collection has many references to be att...
It is all about watches, not rarity, in my opinion.
Rarity is relative... If one million people want the same watch which has been produced in 10 000 pieces, this is a rare piece. Now, if only 100 people want a watch which has been made in 1000 pieces, this is not a rare watch. It is all about the watch. T...
I totally agree
A way to avoid mistakes is to really focus on the watch itself. Its details are what we will be enjoying or not when we will be wearing it. Even if it is sometimes hard to ignore what comes around brands and models, and I imagine it is part of the charm t...
Yes, I remember the 5712 but you had a 5980 as well didn't you?
I see your great interest for the 5960A. I'll be glad to see when you take the plunge whatever your choice is. We'll have many Volvo shots Best, Mark
Totally agree...
But as a collector should you really care about what others say about a watch. If you like it that should be enough ;-) I see that there is a great love for the nautilus collection in this forum which i respect but i must say I wouldn't dream of buying on...
Indeed Fram and I think that this is the difficulty!
Especially as we don't all have the knowledge and background in watches to determine what is good and what is not. I remember some watches or brands I was looking at when I started and I'm happy I didn't get them :p However, I didn't know this back then. ...
A very thought provoking post Mark.
I consider the watches you posted to be classics, but I also love modern Pateks. I find it frustrating when I read comments like Patek has now lost its way. There are countless Pateks from the Thierry era that I would love to own - 5990, 5524, 5930, 5905,...
I agree....I am bemused when I hear comments in how lazy PP is for not making movements for specific case sizes and how wonderful Lange is!! The 5524 Bey g one criticized for too small case....
Then we get the "iconic" 5070 with the smallest movement to case size and everyone think it's just great and gets weak at the knees!! Give me a 5170 any day!!! Sophisticated, low profile understated elegance
That imho emphasized how much different we are all
and how we see each references. The ones that would please us the most are not always the ones we see most or think of at first. But I think that flaws are not seen the same way, depending on how we like a watch at first and how we can get used to or enjo...
I love them both too
And I can even add some vintage models, even though it is quite new for me and that I don't like a lot of models yet. I must say that I agree with you and that I think that most of Patek's novelties are going a different but good way. We still have the ch...
Thank you Mark for your post!
I agree with all the points you made. We always believed taste is a highly subjective thing. What we don't realised is we are influenced by others (opinion leaders or other watch fellows) everyday. As an owner of 5110. I have to say that I fell in love wi...
You're perfectly right
and I must say, concerning the 5110R that I didn't pay much attention to it until I tried the one of a fellow purist. Influence is part of all what is linked with design and aesthetical matters. Our tastes are all influenced by our experience. Hence, I fo...
Hi mark
A most intriguing and interesting thread 1. It is to be expected that tastes change and todays favourites may not be this which collectors desire in 10 or 20 years We vcan see this with bubble backs , Princes and even the highly desired 3970 have fallen o...
Indeed Julian
Standards evolve through decades and some watches' success might evolve likewise. I say "might" as some can remain. As you emphasize it, it is a lot about normal human liking and how we come to appreciate things (or not) over time. The vintage collecting ...
I happen to agree with all your points Mark
when I began my journey through the fantastic world of watches. I wanted so bad a green bezel Submariner, it was back in 2009. A friend of mine conviced the watch was nor beautiful or a keeper for the upcoming years. He was quite a visionnary? The fact is...
Your example is indeed something most of us I imagine have experienced at the beginning
and I must say that what I presented in my original post (getting some distance to have a more global view on the market, allowing people to have access to a wider diversity of watches without being scared to make mistakes and being able to find what real...
Mark brilliant as always.
You nail it every time. Glad you mention the 5960p. I've been banging on about this watch for years. Here is a pic of The Good , The even better and the Ugly...... I let you decide which is which. All the best. M. You ...
From left to right....
5960, 5970, 5070, Beauties. Congratulations Miles_151, Best Regards Edward
Well done Edward. You got Ugly.
Thank God you didn't say middle one 😉 Have a great weekend. It's so Ugly it's beautiful. M.
This is a diversification I like a lot
You have in terms of design and complications such different watches. I'm glad as a 5970 and 5070 owner you appreciated the thread and I don't think we will have enough of these pics! Enjoy your watches Miles and thank you for your kindness Best, Mark
Great thoughts!
I am sure that nowadays the only real thing that watch world lacks is criticism. People blindly praise some watches (like the references you mentioned) or give a positive nod to all other watches. The truth is that lots of expensive watches including PPs ...
I think it is difficult indeed
especially since it is also a lot about subjective elements (not only but they have a significant place in this field). Hence, prices, finishing, reliability (based on statistics or on the post we might see on forums and so on) are really difficult issues...
Wow.
You got some serious platinum Chronos is a wearing them in the best of health. Best, Ahmed
This picture is one of the most appealing
Modern and new references, all traditional watchmaking at best Best, Mark
Sometimes...
I really wonder why we do not see more disparity here. For example I would really love to see the 5230g or the 5396g with the beautiful slate grey dial in the wild. Either I am the only one who like them or they are so rare, that nobody get them...
I see this quite often, even elsewhere
Some references that watch fans share on forums come more frequently than others. What you emphasize is exactly the purpose of my post. Not that it is bad, as people should of course get what they prefer and also that those models have something beautiful...
I am late to the thread...
But methinks your points are really interesting. I have a really good feeling that many years down the road (20 to 30 yrs later), people would start hunting for current Patek references just like what people are doing for earlier references. It is a vicio...
Indeed, when we take some distance, things look different
When we try to observe today the 1970's-1980's, then the 1990's-2000's, we can see different styles of watches and that things change. Some models "improve" and are even more appreciated and some a little less. In the 1930's-1960's period there are icons ...
Great post Mark!
When I was looking for my first Patek, the 6000g wasn't even on my shortlist. I hardly saw any pictures of it online - other icons like the Nautilus, worldtimers, ACs and PCs dominated the spotlight. This was until I saw one in the metal. I fell in love i...
This is indeed an element I wished to underline
As we are all looking for pleasure in watches, it is in our own interest to widen our experience. It is the same in other fields but the more we focus on a small number of pieces, the more we narrow the chances to enjoy something else. This is something t...
One great post again!
First I thought I will not participate the discussion because it seems so easy to upset many... To me it seems to be a fact that there are people who declare something as Iconic and this declaration gets then followers. Another phenomenon is that what is ...
Technology typically advances......
......yet watches are as much art as they are science. Perhaps more art than science at this level. It is always easy to argue that the most technologically advanced development is superior. Yet...... .....they don't make Picassos like they used to. Genui...
i have no issues at all...like you say we can all have personal views etc etc.....just making the observation that....
.....X is better than y is a never-ending and circular argument based on assumptions that are impossible to validate. And also...that they don't make Picassos like they used to....
indeed...that is correct....
....its discussed all the time. And there can never be a resolution. That is why I think its pointless. We both love 5370P. Great...all that proves is that we agree on this. We differ on our view on 5960A......no way of determining right or wrong because ...
True. But Picasso is dead, Patek Philippe is very alive
as 5370P proves. I love my 5960 but I'm never claiming that it would be an iconic reference - just the right one for my daily wear. Best, Kari
Three things.....
....Picasso is very much alive. He continues to live through his art. ....Patek Philippe is very much alive....It continues to live through its art....both present and future. I never used the word iconic....just the analysis that any model that attempts ...
I think this is a pointless argument.
I can naturally avoid expressing my own ideas and preferences if it makes life easier. And I have never claimed that my personal opinion would be the right one. In fact I have pretty bad taste. Best, Kari
Not at all....
.....like i said in previous post, hearing what you think about a reference you love is great. It is where the forum adds so much.
Indeed, diversity and curiosity will serve our passion even more
Thanks for taking the time to write your thoughts on this matter. This is a wide subject and I was more particularly emphasizing the fact that (like in any other fileds, and not only aesthetical ones) the more we talk and focus on a few actors and the mor...