patrick_y
[PuristSPro Moderator]
33543
Thank you Mdg!
No doubt the Submariner is an excellent watch. But it's not excellent just because it's holding its value well, it's excellent because of its consistent reliability in ultra tough environments and more importantly, it's what the vast majority of people want when they think of spending $10K on a watch - people simply want a Rolex. If I went somewhere on Earth where my life depended on my watch, I'd be wearing a Rolex. Vacheron Constantin Overseas? No thanks. Bulgari Octo Finissimo with 100m water resistance? Too delicate. Shipwrecked on an island with a Patek Philippe Nautilus? Hmm... A Rolex might be the better choice. I don't think most people buy a Rolex with this survivability in mind. But that's what I think of when I look at Rolexes.
There are people who buy expensive sports cars with beautiful leather clad interiors as a status object to, and there are people who buy expensive sports cars purely as a tool for racing on a track - driving a sports car on the road is terrifying to me. To me, I see great appeal in the Rolex as a tool. And I'm willing to pay a premium for that tool.
IWC INGENIEUR Pricing Strategy Draws Interesting Conclusion...
Synopsis: How does IWC justify the high pricing of its new INGENIEUR line? Patrick_y examines value in today's Swiss Watch Industry. Could IWC be milking the market with a high price for the INGENIEUR model? No, I have to say it in a nicer more constructi...
And... the Titanium version is $2900 more
Patrick, thanks for the above write-up and you make some excellent points. In general, there are quite a few other brands and watches in the same boat hence your last sentence: "This whole watch industry has just gone crazy with its pricing, with Rolex (t...
We should add Porsche to that too!
Porsche is really charging a lot for their 911 models. And I understand a small premium is necessary for the GT3 models. But that huge of a premium seems to be excessive. Out of all 911 production, around 14% or 1 in 7, are GT3 models (according to a Unit...
The Ingenieur pricing seems ambitious... aspirational.
I have the same feeling - a sensible premium to the Mark is 30 - 40%. There is a lot to like about the new Ingenieur. I'm not sure it's enough though to move the perception needle that far. Wish them luck.
Absolutely. Very ambitious!
I also feel the design is just not there. It's cold. Robotic. The older one had an elegance to it. The new one is a little too edgy. I feel it's a big opportunity missed. The crown guards on the new one also kind of add too much to the DNA. I like IWC. I ...
I agree. My definition of thin is definitely less than 10mm for a time only watch...
Then again, maybe objectively speaking, it's thin considering the watch has a soft iron inner case, so when compared with other watches with a soft iron inner case, this watch is within 1 standard deviation of those (probably still not thin enough to be c...
Great info as always...
...but Rolex is still Rolex, and what they're charging for the Sub is a bargain (at retail) imho. Especially considering resale as some do (I am not interested in reselling watches but at the same time don't want to take a huge hit when 'driven off the lo...
Thank you Mdg!
No doubt the Submariner is an excellent watch. But it's not excellent just because it's holding its value well, it's excellent because of its consistent reliability in ultra tough environments and more importantly, it's what the vast majority of people wa...
Ahh! Yes!
That's true, people can park their money into a Rolex like a financial bond. And yes, there is actually a significant percentage of the buying public who think this way.
Thanks for your writing, Patrick. Regarding Submariner however, i disagree that IWC has the same value for money
The movement caliber 3235 in rolex is far superior, with the latest tech and a true inhouse with proven reliability for decades. The IWC movement is standard Richemont movement shared with pilot XX, baume mercier riviera, and similar with Cartier movement...
I actually agree with you...
From the movement perspective, I have to agree, Rolex actually does a pretty darn good job. The IWC 32111 and 32110 movements are basically movements that were designed by Val Fleurier for IWC (probably partially manufactured for IWC by Val Fleurier or an...
That is true. IWC case and bracelet is one of the best in industry. Thats why i have 3 IWC and only 2 rolex in my small collection.
The pilot and ingenieur bracelet is a feat in engineering. I bought the pilot bracelet separately for my Pilot 3706, for USD 1500. My wife think i am crazy, but it is worth every penny.
Wait till you see the Chopard bracelet for the Alpine Eagle!
How do they doe those links!? Laser? It's not water jet. Or is it an entirely separate piece (this makes most sense)? Too long for wire spark erosion (and that'd be way too expensive). But the precision here will likely make this bracelet fairly difficult...
I agree that those are difficult to manufacture. I have seen the pictures of how it works.
The pin has unique "8" shape. Each side of the pin is inserted into the link that has "C" shape slot. The square middle link is actually a "cap" that has a screw hole to match the single screw on the back. To prevent the pin to slides, when screwed from b...
You described that brilliantly!
You described it perfectly. Honestly, while it is a very complex system, it does sound reliable overall. Just have to make sure that all those screws stay tight! You're right, there are multiple failure points which could risk the watch coming loose since...
I fully agree
not for me. These new model are soulless. factoring the price they are even more meh.
Une vache et un client. Une vache est un client. Le vache est le client!
The brands got confused... Too many clients came into their stores wearing those furry shoes you got! Remember those shoes??? MOoooooOO! (For the other people reading this post, this is a bit of an inside joke from 10 years ago when Amanico had these funn...
The watch brands see us as full of milk...
The watch brands see us full of milk, as a lot of people became very wealthy during the pandemic. And since clients were so willing to trade milk for watches, the watch companies almost think they're doing the client a favor by taking the client's milk!
I personally would rather trade my milk with
Brand that appreciate us by true innovations and passion. I understand brands are getting greedy yet some still show impressive effort and amazing creation . Unfortunately this one is just nothing special.
I agree...
The Mark XX is definitely not a great bargain compared to other watches on the market. But wouldn't you say that Tudor is a lower positioned brand than IWC? I know to us, we don't see the brand hierarchy since we care about the quality and the quality dif...
Hey Patrick, this is an interesting analysis 🥂
There are brands that similarly put a same movement into different model range and charge differently. In the secondary market, the price differential between these models with the same movement is also very apparent. So buyers are looking at the whole pa...
I'll have to look at that Chopard clasp again!
In my experience the Alpine Eagle clasp was okay. The Rolex Lever Locking clasp is the best! Nothing better! Such a good clasp! Plus, unlike a friction system, there's no wear, you could clasp and unclasp that thing literally a million times in a dusty en...
That Rolex clasp is just amazing. So good.
Lever lock is so much better than friction lock.
I would say Mr. Grainger-Herr priced this to perfection👌
As we now consider the overpriced and uninspired Mark XX as a bargain!
I know... I'm still shocked at my final conclusion!
I never thought of the Mark XX as a bargain until now! Thanks for reading! My best to you and the family! What a cool dad you are!
Very Overpriced
Is IWC is banking on the consumer to be uninformed about the Ingenieur's movement? Are they relying heavily on Gerald Genta's name? Do they know the people that know about Gerald Genta will also question the movement? I think the Ingenieur will flop becau...
No telling what brands are thinking these days...
As another member pointed out, the price at JLC has gone up 40% on some models in a short time. The INGENIEUR is a true Genta sketched design that Genta designed himself personally. So there's some value there since right now the world is crazy about the ...
We are talking about the current Ingeniuer release here
Everything you said is about a future product that is not even out yet. And may never come out. I cant give credit to a watch/brand for something that they might do. Especially when they can do those things now. That does not justify the price tag. We are...
Emotional
I taste your concerns about the high price of the Ingenieur. The storm the watch industry is in, have pro and cons. My relation to IWC is strong. I always found IWC is the benchmark of the dress watch, a personal individual relation. More than every other...
IWC is definitely a great brand worth admiration!
I like their products too. It's because of my passion for this brand that I examined this INGENIEUR watch so thoroughly and realized why the price was so high. If I didn't care about IWC very much, I wouldn't have noticed!
I know
Yes Patrick, i know it. With the WPS manufacture travel, you went with a group of WPS friends to JLC to have a minute repeater tour. Koozy have post his Ingenieur and he had read your thread. I read it and replied, cause it is a cool and good looking watc...
Yes! We're all about having a good time!
And sometimes while we're all having a good time, we may not agree on every single thing. For instance I really wanted to like the IWC INGENIEUR, and I've been communicating to IWC's PR team about it and they kept on telling me they're on it, it's still "...
My learning about Dubois et fils
I can not always be at WPS. Busy knowing more about Dubois et fils. It is an interesting story, and i just making my choice which Debois et fils watch i like the most, for…. 😀
Lets hope nobody buys them ...and that they are left with a huge stock
Then they might realise we're not all insane. Great article, great watch, STUPID price Richemont completely lost it. Nothing really new or worth looking at the last years, only insane price increases. My Duo Face Reverso went up about 45% in 2 years ... C...
The market has gone crazy...
COVID pandemic changed the world! We're just here to pick up the scraps! And yes, I actually like the 1347 and 1348 (I even like that matte case texture), but I also think that they're way too expensive. Every brand got a little greedy I'd say! But who ca...
Thank you for an interesting article and discussion.
One could ask this question concerning pricing decisions in general. Of the three watches I purchased in the last two years, two have had significant price increases since I purchased them. One wonders if it is related to supply/demand, the cost of materi...
Agreed!
You're right. The market as a whole has shifted their pricing significantly. So this isn't a unique phenomena. Much of the shift is probably due to maintaining parity with competitors on the same level/heirarchy. And the other large portion of the shift i...
Your analysis is spot on,thank you for that!!
When I first saw the new Ingenieur I asked myself what I would be willing to spend on this watch : my answer ( to myself) was +- 8 k Euro and not a cent more. I have given up to look actively at new watches from any of the Richemont brands ! Best, Gerard
Things have really gotten expensive!
This discussion, I cannot take full credit. A lot of journalists have been surprised at the pricing since W&W. After I saw the price, I thought it was a little high, and since the design was a bit too heavy handed for me, so I wasn't crazy about the desig...
Thanks for the wonderful analysis 👏but I thought pricing discussion were not welcome in the forum 🤭
Hello Patrick, Thanks for sharing your insightful analysis; it certainly provides much food for thought. I'm aware that pricing discussions are typically seen as a bit of a taboo in this forum 🤭, but since I personally find them fascinating, you'll hear n...
You are a man who understands inner beauty!
When I look for movies to watch, I start by the director of the movie, not by the actors whom are in the movie. Christopher Nolan's movies have been pretty interesting to me most of the time. And like you, when I look at the watch, I look at the movement ...
A thought proving article , thank you.
As I get older, but clearly not wiser (as my wife reminds me regularly) the cost/ price of a watch is what someone will pay. There are plenty of folk who will pay significant amounts for various reasons. I agree with a previous post that the delta between...
Thank you for reading!
And Thank you for the humor! While I personally agree with you about the 6K vs 11K, I can tell you that the market and watch brands/executives don't agree with us. As I mentioned to the previous poster, there are two ways to look at it. We're probably loo...
What a great post!
Though I really like the new IWC Ingenieur, at first I was a little perplexed at the price, certainly in comparison with a lot of their Pilots series (not just the Mark XX), such as their Pilot 43 and Chronograph 41 series. Your article reminded me of the...
You bring up a great point!
The Laureato series is another great data point that wasn't mentioned (there really are a lot of choices to consider in the integrated sports watch territory). The Laureato certainly has a nicer base movement than this Ingenieur. And the biggest disconnec...
Completely agree on the VC 82172 v 1921 (which I had not thought of), though a wide price gap, the latter, as you quite rightly said, makes up for it in its unique and much larger case design.
I keep forgetting about the movement of the new Ingenieur being the same as the XX which is certainly interesting (interesting as well with a number of Omega models using similar movements in their watches with varying price differences). Of course if I f...
I have a feeling IWC will make an even better version in a couple years...
When Chopard came out with the Alpine Eagle, I thought it was very good. Almost perfect. But I said to them, change some minor details and put in the L.U.C. 1.96 movement, and I'd buy it. Well. They did just that! And they increased the price from $14,100...
Agree and I cannot wait for that! :)
I know that it might be wishful thinking, but I hope they might reduce the size a bit too. For me a 38 would be a perfect size, but again, wishful thinking. 😆 But yes, I think the new Ingenieur is very good indeed!
Maybe! We will hopefully see it in a few years.
IWC sometimes won't revisit a line of watches for years. But the plan above is definitely a possibility. A 38mm version? Hmm. Maybe. I'm crossing my fingers for you!
I think that all the watches presented in the post are
more fairly priced than the Iwc models.
Which one would you consider?
And did you ever choose a new fountain pen? Did you procure that Graf Von Faber Castell fountain pen? Out of the watches above, I personally really like the Bulgari Octo FInissimo. But not everyone wants a thin watch. And it's not comfortable for some peo...
I didn’t buy the GVFC. My more probable next fountain
pen it’ll be either the Santini Giant Abissi or the Elbwood (Frank Pressentin) blue ebonite and silver. As for the watches I’d go for the Chopard. What I don’t like about the Bulgari is that you can’t tell the time between 30 and 45. I have a GS diver tha...
That Santini looks lovely!
I've got too many fountain pens. I've literally got dozens of pens that have never been inked even once. So I'm not looking to buy anymore pens. I said that many years ago and a couple years ago I bought the Montblanc 4810 BORGHESE model. Oh I like that p...
Wow! I have around the same maybe slightly less and I only use one or two of the fountains!
Keeping a lot of fountain pens in use is kind of difficult, as they all have to be cleaned if you decide to stop using them.
1960's 666AD
My one and only Ingie This one was fun to wear. Also had a GF beads of rice bracelet. ...
I really like those G. Freres bracelets...
Those G. Freres bracelets were really popular among these times and they definitely show the style of the 60s. Thanks for sharing your pre-Genta INGENIEUR with us!
Totally get the pricing but maybe poor timing for IWC. The bottom is falling out for all the luxury brands and the time for over priced aspirational but ordinary products is over....
All the brands are reporting massive yoy decreases in the the bottoms of their line-ups. The belts, scarves, and t-shirts offered by the luxury brands at astronomic margins to everyday people wanting a piece of the brand's status at an entry level price i...
Agreed! Timing is a little late...
Timing is too late. Pricing is also a little high that they scared some people away. They could've started with a lower price perhaps and raised it a bit as the watch caught on - although this pisses off customers too. But lots of good points as always! R...
Well done IWC...
I like the design very much and the comparison to the old model is meaningless. I'm interested in the Titanium version and this is were the problem lies, almost 3K more and it's even more expensive than Rolex's YachtMaster in Titanium! Sport watches shoul...
Awesome! We've got a fan! And you're absolutely right, "to each his own."
Yes! That titanium model is kind of expensive. But it might be the perfect watch. I'd say just make sure you LIKE THE WATCH SO MUCH that you'll still like it 20 years from now. Then resale is less of an issue. I generally have this "test" before I buy thi...
Great analysis
I appreciate how you've laid out the competitive landscape. I'd consider the Zenith Defy Skyline at 9000 USD to fit into this landscape too, as it is another integrated watch with an interesting movement and good case and bracelet finishing. The new Ingen...
I agree. There's potential for the INGENIEUR line!
They may come out with some more versions of it in the coming years! Who knows! We'll see! I didn't include the Zenith mainly because I didn't know if there was any history behind the Zenith Defy Skyline. The INGENIEUR has a history of being designed in 1...
?
I honestly don't know if you are joking when you wrote that IWC is undercharging for their pilot watches. Look at what Laco and Stowa are making and producing. That just shows that IWC is overcharging for their pilot watches.
The whole thing is tongue and cheek.
The whole industry is charging too much for these watches. Even Rolex is charging too much for a simple Submariner, considering haute horlogerie options such as a Bulgari Octo Finissimo is only around $2000 or so more expensive. Although, Rolex being the ...
INGENIEUR Is one of the most underrated watch
Designed by the late design maestro mr Gerald, along with Bulgari-Bulgari and constallation. If the RO and Nautilus can shoot fr > 25k, then IWC pricing it just above 10k sounds reasonable. We can talk about one having gold rotor or nice movement finishin...
Ok. But how about the comparison to the Mark XX?
Is this case and bracelet really double the value of a Mark XX?
Well sadly Mark not design by the late design Maestro.
It just like nautilus and aquanaut comparison where there is more than few grand different for both basic steel models. Not an expert on PP to differential both model differences. IMO It just how watch company wants to place the product pricing to keep di...
Neither is the modern one.
I'd say the design is so far departed from the one Genta designed that it's too big of a difference. Ferdinand Porsche designed both the Volkswagen Bug and the Porsche 911. They both have similar layouts too, and are similar in many ways. But they're cons...
A small correction, if I may...😉
Ferdinand Porsche designed the Beetle in the early 1930's while his grandson, Ferdinand Alexander Porsche, designed the 901 (later known as the 911) in 1959 as the successor to the 356 which was also his grandfather's creation. ...
Oh my goodness! Big mistake! Thank you for setting the record straight!
I totally forgot this important detail. This always gets me. I also recently forgot about which Alexandre Dumas (the father or the son) wrote a certain play and that created confusion as well (sometimes I totally forget and think the son and the father ar...
Stick with my 3227
Mayb the new ingenieur new pricing … bring back the attention to the older generation ! ...
Very handsome indeed!
I like this finer pattern on the dial. The new version has a pattern that's just too big and too bold. I also like how clean this watch looks without the lug protectors.
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